War in Ukraine

#88,601
#88,601
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Wait? Isn't Russia too depleted to fight?

Putin knows NATO would kick his butt and kill MANY more of his troops with air power. NATO wouldn't even need that many boots on the ground before Putin realized he'd stepped in it.

Before that I would sanction Russia to absolute death like North Korea. Tell the world we've drawn a line and will not do business with you if you do business with Russia until he leaves Ukraine. Quadruple tariffs on Russia and any nation buying anything not absolutely essential from Russia.

I don't want conventional war with Russia in Ukraine but Putin cannot be allowed to bully smaller countries militarily. That's a terrible precedent Obama already started and we need to end now.
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Sure, sure, but risking open war is too much. We'd crush the Ruskies conventionally, but you don't know how desperate they may get. They call nukes deterrents for a reason.
 
#88,602
#88,602
norrislakevol said:
Sure, sure, but risking open war is too much. We'd crush the Ruskies conventionally, but you don't know how desperate they may get. They call nukes deterrents for a reason.
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Politely, many in Europe feared speaking out or doing anything against Hitler because they worried he'd strike them. Before Europe knew it, he was almost done with them.

You have to grow a pair and take care of things sometimes. I don't want war but Russia has zero right to invade other countries and needs to know the world won't tolerate it.

Putin won't stop at Ukraine. If bullying the world works, why should he stop there? We've seen this with Crimea. Why let it continue?
 
#88,603
#88,603
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Politely, many in Europe feared speaking out or doing anything against Hitler because they worried he'd strike them. Before Europe knew it, he was almost done with them.

You have to grow a pair and take care of things sometimes. I don't want war but Russia has zero right to invade other countries and needs to know the world won't
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What right did we have to invade Iraq? We aren't nearly as righteous as we love to pretend.
 
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#88,604
#88,604
norrislakevol said:
That's correct. Putin wanted Ukraine. He didn't get it all, nor will he. Now he is significantly weakened. Hope it was worth it, the equipment losses alone will take over 10 years to recover.
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I think he wanted the ports and industrial areas he captured. He wanted to march in and take over "to cut the head off the snake" but realized his supply lines would be exposed and urban warfare would be more than he was willing to commit to.
 
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#88,605
#88,605
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Politely, many in Europe feared speaking out or doing anything against Hitler because they worried he'd strike them. Before Europe knew it, he was almost done with them.

You have to grow a pair and take care of things sometimes. I don't want war but Russia has zero right to invade other countries and needs to know the world won't tolerate it.

Putin won't stop at Ukraine. If bullying the world works, why should he stop there? We've seen this with Crimea. Why let it continue?
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I’m as anti-Putin as anyone. He’s a delusional bully, and he’s not a genius either, but he’s clever. His world view is shaped by being in government in east Germany when it fell under Gorbachev. I think he believes the Soviet Union crumbled because the leadership was weak and is determined not to be the same. I think he also feels both shunned by NATO and western powers (there have been a couple periods in post-WWII history where there was serious talk about Russia/USSR joining NATO, mainly in the 50s and again in the 90s… but there was too much distrust and anti-communist sentiment) and threatened at the same time. Kind of a rock/hard place scenario.

His invasion of Ukraine is, on the surface, a land-grab and a halt to NATO expansion. Some talk about the cultural aspect with the Ukraine/Russia connection, and how that makes sense as well, but to me that’s just propaganda coming from Russia, and Ukraine’s resolve to fight certainly points to the same. The thing is, Putin felt like he didn’t have much choice. This was a move he felt like he had to make to avoid Russia being completely encapsulated by NATO.

I say all that to point out I do believe Ukraine IS the limit for Putin. I keep hearing people say he won’t stop at Ukraine, but that doesn’t really make sense. Poland is militarily stronger than Ukraine, by a lot. The Baltic states are NATO members, as are much of the rest of the Soviet Block. Maybe he is delusional enough to tempt fate, but he’s clever and his push to partner with China recently shows he’s thinking long term, and invading another sovereign nation would negate all that work. This is chess, not checkers.
 
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#88,607
#88,607
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
None. Absolutely none.

I've never claimed America is righteous. We are just the best system of govt available. We have elected some serious jackasses both in Congress and as Presidents which leads to poor decisions.
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But you fear monger over Russia and Ukraine and future escapades. Would it be legitimate for Russian and the rest of the world to worry about our actions bc of Iraq? And if so, what right do we have to lecture them?
 
#88,608
#88,608
OHvol40 said:
I’m as anti-Putin as anyone. He’s a delusional bully, and he’s not a genius either, but he’s clever. His world view is shaped by being in government in east Germany when it fell under Gorbachev. I think he believes the Soviet Union crumbled because the leadership was weak and is determined not to be the same. I think he also feels both shunned by NATO and western powers (there have been a couple periods in post-WWII history where there was serious talk about Russia/USSR joining NATO, mainly in the 50s and again in the 90s… but there was too much distrust and anti-communist sentiment) and threatened at the same time. Kind of a rock/hard place scenario.

His invasion of Ukraine is, on the surface, a land-grab and a halt to NATO expansion. Some talk about the cultural aspect with the Ukraine/Russia connection, and how that makes sense as well, but to me that’s just propaganda coming from Russia, and Ukraine’s resolve to fight certainly points to the same. The thing is, Putin felt like he didn’t have much choice. This was a move he felt like he had to make to avoid Russia being completely encapsulated by NATO.

I say all that to point out I do believe Ukraine IS the limit for Putin. I keep hearing people say he won’t stop at Ukraine, but that doesn’t really make sense. Poland is militarily stronger than Ukraine, by a lot. The Baltic states are NATO members, as are much of the rest of the Soviet Block. Maybe he is delusional enough to tempt fate, but he’s clever and his push to partner with China recently shows he’s thinking long term, and invading another sovereign nation would negate all that work. This is chess, not checkers.
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The main problem with Putin is he's never gotten past his KGB and communist roots. He's intensely ruthless and cannot be trusted in any fashion.

I mentioned his brazen poisoning using Polonium, as though every nation on earth had access and a network capable of delivering it. He sent a message to the world that he didn't care who knew who he killed.

Further, that mercenary like General who he was using in Ukraine who had a disagreement with Putin then moved his troops to Belarus. Prigizhn or something like that. Putin had a bomb placed on his jet after they clashed and killed him.

Putin has no good intentions for anyone except Putin and frankly, I know Obama wasn't up to dealing with him and I don't think Trump is either. He's best kept at arms length by strength, not negotiation. He will never show his true hand nor negotiate in good faith.

I'm not concerned if NATO has him surrounded. I'm not concerned by Putin's feelings of desperation. I'm not concerned about his side of issues AT ALL. I'm concerned about what's best for America and what's best for America is Russia not only looking weak but being weak.

Reagan had this locked up for us and we let Russia gain strength back. We should've kept our foot on their neck economically as they're hardly a trade concern for us.

Putin and Russia will NEVER be true trustworthy friends of America. EVER. Weakening Russia and China is the most important things our leadership can do to keep Americans safe.
 
#88,610
#88,610
volfanhill said:
But you fear monger over Russia and Ukraine and future escapades. Would it be legitimate for Russian and the rest of the world to worry about our actions bc of Iraq? And if so, what right do we have to lecture them?
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I'm not lecturing Russia at all. I'm for doing what is best for America. Keeping Russia looking and actually being weak on the world stage is best for America.

Invading Iraq, even Bush41 wrote it was dumb because we would have no exit strategy...... and he was right. Bush43 was a complete idiot under the spell of Dick Cheney who enriched himself financially off the war. Invading Iraq was NOT in the best interest of America and was a mistake.

I'm not saying America is "always right" nor even always truthful in our dealings with the world.

This situation with Ukraine has a coalition of a lot of European nations and others who realize Russia shouldn't be allowed to invade Ukraine again as Obama allowed them to previously. This isn't like Iraq where several countries were at best iffy about our actions. Lots of nations are supporting Ukraine and we should also.
 
#88,611
#88,611
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
I'm not lecturing Russia at all. I'm for doing what is best for America. Keeping Russia looking and actually being weak on the world stage is best for America.

Invading Iraq, even Bush41 wrote it was dumb because we would have no exit strategy...... and he was right. Bush43 was a complete idiot under the spell of Dick Cheney who enriched himself financially off the war. Invading Iraq was NOT in the best interest of America and was a mistake.

I'm not saying America is "always right" nor even always truthful in our dealings with the world.

This situation with Ukraine has a coalition of a lot of European nations and others who realize Russia shouldn't be allowed to invade Ukraine again as Obama allowed them to previously. This isn't like Iraq where several countries were at best iffy about our actions. Lots of nations are supporting Ukraine and we should also.
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Well, I’ve always considered it best policy to try to understand your opposition. They have a unique perspective based on unique experiences and circumstances just as Americans do. To write Putin off as a monster is lazy and uniformed. He IS dangerous, but to not understand him or the Russian leadership just makes him more dangerous. Of course he has committed atrocities, so has nearly every American president.

Teddy said speak softly and carry a big stick. I think that applies here.
 
#88,612
#88,612
OHvol40 said:
Well, I’ve always considered it best policy to try to understand your opposition. They have a unique perspective based on unique experiences and circumstances just as Americans do. To write Putin off as a monster is lazy and uniformed. He IS dangerous, but to not understand him or the Russian leadership just makes him more dangerous. Of course he has committed atrocities, so has nearly every American president.

Teddy said speak softly and carry a big stick. I think that applies here.
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That's exactly what I'm saying.

Trump blusters that he's going to solve everything and he can't. STFU, Mr President. Use the hotline to Russia and tell Putin how we see it and listen to his response.

Stop running your mouth in public about this and start making plans, like we did with Saddam in Kuwait to remove these invaders. Your move, Vlad, but we're about to turn NATO loose to slaughter your troops from the air unless you leave the country you invaded.

Putin says he's not leaving. I'll bet he will after about 12 hours of NATO picking off his troops.

I'm not about appeasement because this is Putin's second time invading Ukraine. It should've been dealt with by Obama. I pray Trump has more guts and understanding of the job which is to keep us safe. A stronger Russia in the world DOES NOT keep us safe.
 
#88,613
#88,613
wokespy.com

Adam Schiff Struggles Live on CNN When Asked About Trump’s Peace Efforts

Sen. Adam Schiff (D-CA) was pressed Friday on CNN over whether President Donald Trump deserves credit for working to achieve peace between Russia and Ukraine following Trump’s meeting with Russian …
wokespy.com wokespy.com

“Look, I’m all for any attempt to bring an end to the bloodshed, but what would have been, I think, a far more successful strategy for the President was to have Ukraine’s back, to be leaning into providing material and military support to Ukraine, to give Ukraine the resources it needed to take out the trains carrying fuel going to the front, which have continued to feed the war,” Schiff said.

“So I agree, the Biden approach didn’t succeed, and I think because it was too slow to provide enough material support to Ukraine to give Ukraine that military advantage it needed,” Schiff continued.



Despite the flow of aid, Ukrainian forces were unable to secure decisive victories, and the war has continued into 2025.

During Biden’s presidency, the U.S. government issued sanctions on Russian banks and debt, barred American investment in separatist-controlled regions of Ukraine, and later reimposed sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

Warmongering pencil necked geek. Keep contributing to the meat grinder. Brilliant.

Question Senator Schitt: How much of your portfolio consists of defense stocks?
 
#88,614
#88,614
OHvol40 said:
I’m as anti-Putin as anyone. He’s a delusional bully, and he’s not a genius either, but he’s clever. His world view is shaped by being in government in east Germany when it fell under Gorbachev. I think he believes the Soviet Union crumbled because the leadership was weak and is determined not to be the same. I think he also feels both shunned by NATO and western powers (there have been a couple periods in post-WWII history where there was serious talk about Russia/USSR joining NATO, mainly in the 50s and again in the 90s… but there was too much distrust and anti-communist sentiment) and threatened at the same time. Kind of a rock/hard place scenario.

His invasion of Ukraine is, on the surface, a land-grab and a halt to NATO expansion. Some talk about the cultural aspect with the Ukraine/Russia connection, and how that makes sense as well, but to me that’s just propaganda coming from Russia, and Ukraine’s resolve to fight certainly points to the same. The thing is, Putin felt like he didn’t have much choice. This was a move he felt like he had to make to avoid Russia being completely encapsulated by NATO.

I say all that to point out I do believe Ukraine IS the limit for Putin. I keep hearing people say he won’t stop at Ukraine, but that doesn’t really make sense. Poland is militarily stronger than Ukraine, by a lot. The Baltic states are NATO members, as are much of the rest of the Soviet Block. Maybe he is delusional enough to tempt fate, but he’s clever and his push to partner with China recently shows he’s thinking long term, and invading another sovereign nation would negate all that work. This is chess, not checkers.
Click to expand...
Put is not going beyond Ukraine. You way underestimate Putin.
 
#88,615
#88,615
rekinhavoc said:
wokespy.com

Adam Schiff Struggles Live on CNN When Asked About Trump’s Peace Efforts

Sen. Adam Schiff (D-CA) was pressed Friday on CNN over whether President Donald Trump deserves credit for working to achieve peace between Russia and Ukraine following Trump’s meeting with Russian …
wokespy.com wokespy.com

“Look, I’m all for any attempt to bring an end to the bloodshed, but what would have been, I think, a far more successful strategy for the President was to have Ukraine’s back, to be leaning into providing material and military support to Ukraine, to give Ukraine the resources it needed to take out the trains carrying fuel going to the front, which have continued to feed the war,” Schiff said.

“So I agree, the Biden approach didn’t succeed, and I think because it was too slow to provide enough material support to Ukraine to give Ukraine that military advantage it needed,” Schiff continued.



Despite the flow of aid, Ukrainian forces were unable to secure decisive victories, and the war has continued into 2025.

During Biden’s presidency, the U.S. government issued sanctions on Russian banks and debt, barred American investment in separatist-controlled regions of Ukraine, and later reimposed sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

Warmongering pencil necked geek. Keep contributing to the meat grinder. Brilliant.

Question Senator Schitt: How much of your portfolio consists of defense stocks?
Click to expand...

Yeah, biden needed this war as did the military complex. Countries still need oil and they'll get it from Russia l. That's why all these sanctions failed to hurt russia
 
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#88,616
#88,616
dalton_vol said:
Put is not going beyond Ukraine. You way underestimate Putin.
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Putin also wasn't going to invade Ukraine according the VN experts of yesteryear such as yourself.

I'm not sure what is stopping him at this point, Europe seems completely either unable or unwilling to defend themselves and the USA is basically throwing our hands in the air and saying it's up to Ukraine to accept some terrible deal where they lose a big percentage of land full of natural resources. Is that the best option for Ukraine at this point? Maybe so, considering the extent of the help they are receiving from us and Europe is simply stalling Russia as they continue to thow more and more peasants to the front lines.

And if they do make that deal we can expect Russia will be back for more in a few years. They didn't hold to the last deal, I don't know why we would expect them to follow through on a new one.
 
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#88,618
#88,618
OHvol40 said:
I’m as anti-Putin as anyone. He’s a delusional bully, and he’s not a genius either, but he’s clever. His world view is shaped by being in government in east Germany when it fell under Gorbachev. I think he believes the Soviet Union crumbled because the leadership was weak and is determined not to be the same. I think he also feels both shunned by NATO and western powers (there have been a couple periods in post-WWII history where there was serious talk about Russia/USSR joining NATO, mainly in the 50s and again in the 90s… but there was too much distrust and anti-communist sentiment) and threatened at the same time. Kind of a rock/hard place scenario.

His invasion of Ukraine is, on the surface, a land-grab and a halt to NATO expansion. Some talk about the cultural aspect with the Ukraine/Russia connection, and how that makes sense as well, but to me that’s just propaganda coming from Russia, and Ukraine’s resolve to fight certainly points to the same. The thing is, Putin felt like he didn’t have much choice. This was a move he felt like he had to make to avoid Russia being completely encapsulated by NATO.

I say all that to point out I do believe Ukraine IS the limit for Putin. I keep hearing people say he won’t stop at Ukraine, but that doesn’t really make sense. Poland is militarily stronger than Ukraine, by a lot. The Baltic states are NATO members, as are much of the rest of the Soviet Block. Maybe he is delusional enough to tempt fate, but he’s clever and his push to partner with China recently shows he’s thinking long term, and invading another sovereign nation would negate all that work. This is chess, not checkers.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of this but have some exceptions.

Putin - People praise him for being "intelligent" or "genius" but he kind of blew things for Russia early in his reign in my opinion. Russia could have become what China has become, the low cost manufacturing center. With the USSR education system and heavy industry still in Russia, they had the opportunity. The influx of capital from Oil was also a factor. Putin has terribly miss-managed Russia and it shows in their failure to defeat Ukraine in this war or their lack of true economic power. An economically strong Russia with more diversified industry would have likely been able to put pressure on World Economy to avoid sanction or aid to Ukraine

Russia/Ukraine - They are very similar. Both come from the Slavic Rus peoples and are Orthodox. Arguably, Ukraine is the homeland of Russia versus the opposite. Kievan Rus and Novgorod were the two major medieval kingdoms that helped build modern Russia/Ukraine. When Russia drove the Tartars and others out of Ukraine, it was like liberation to the Ukrainians (called Ruthenians back then). Ukraine was historically the bread basket of the old Russian Empire and has also a high amount of Russia's metal resources and manufacturing. Russia can't be great without Ukraine back. I think this is why it was such a big deal. Putin was initially trying to run Ukraine with puppets but when his puppet regime got ran off, the writing was on the wall and he invaded. The Ukrainians unelected Putin's puppets were what caused this war and probably not any specific US President. This also explains Zelensky-Putin hatred.

People want to call me pro-Russian because I said Ukraine and Russia are the same and we shouldn't be involved in this Russian "Civil War" but I would cheer if Zelenksy's regime took over in Moscow. I do think they should be the same country (with Belarus) because they are all Eastern Slavic Rus peoples just like I think North and South Korea should be the same country and hope for it some day. I would prefer Zelenksy's government running this new Russia over Putin's any day of the week.

Ultimately, I don't think it is our problem because people could point to various regions of our country that we "took" by force and say they should be independent based on "Self-Determination". I am also not a fan of Self-Determination as it has caused a lot of violence. I think the Middle East and Balkans would have been more stable with Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empires still around for example.
 
#88,621
#88,621
MercyPercy said:
I don't know why we would expect them to follow through on a new one.
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Who is "we"? Sounds like you need to suit up. 🤷‍♂️

https://www.ildu.com.ua/

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