War in Ukraine

#88,176
#88,176
hog88 said:
You're delusional. China goes bust without us.

Yes it would be very painful for the US but it would be catastrophic for China.
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Everyone goes bust. The delusion is not understanding this basic concept. You are threatening them with the same thing that you claim would make them go bust.

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#88,177
#88,177
LSU-SIU said:
Everyone goes bust. The delusion is not understanding this basic concept. You are threatening them with the same thing that you claim would make them go bust.

teenage-suicide.gif
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both would fall, but I think China's would be a lot worse. like good bye China as it at all relates to the current ones. certain aspects of the US could survive.

China is far more centralized than we are. one thing goes wrong the whole house of cards comes down, and there is NO ONE to pick up the pieces. you don't have the same level of education, and independence over there necessary to have pockets of survival we would see here.
 
#88,178
#88,178
MontyPython said:
Rosy outlook, bro.

I don't see how freezing the front lines in Ukraine would be considered a "defeat" for Putin. He's won 20% of Ukraine. And, as Putin has claimed himself, he just wants Russia to "recapture" the 4 regions of Eastern Ukraine. He already has most of them.

Again, I'm not suggesting NATO come into Ukraine with guns blazing in an attempt to recapture lost Ukrainian land... to the contrary, Ukraine's admittance to NATO simply solidifies the current lines and stops Russian aggression.
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No, it will drag NATO and therefore the US into a war with nukes readily available on both sides.

I really would rather not have WW3.
 
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#88,179
#88,179
LouderVol said:
both would fall, but I think China's would be a lot worse. like good bye China as it at all relates to the current ones. certain aspects of the US could survive.

China is far more centralized than we are. one thing goes wrong the whole house of cards comes down, and there is NO ONE to pick up the pieces. you don't have the same level of education, and independence over there necessary to have pockets of survival we would see here.
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That is like predicting who is better off if there is a nuclear war, nobody wants to know the answer to that. At the end of the day, what he is suggesting as a solution is exactly the same thing as I pointed out i.e. reset at some point. Some sanctions and tariffs, sure, a complete band on the swift and the rest of the financial system... nope. That ATM would probably stop working within hours or days and never return. Everyone is going to lose but the U.S. is the biggest beneficiary of the current system by far - roll the dice.

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#88,180
#88,180
LSU-SIU said:
That is like predicting who is better off if there is a nuclear war, nobody wants to know the answer to that. At the end of the day, what he is suggesting as a solution is exactly the same thing as I pointed out i.e. reset at some point. Some sanctions and tariffs, sure, a complete band on the swift and the rest of the financial system... nope. That ATM would probably stop working within hours or days and never return. Everyone is going to lose but the U.S. is the biggest beneficiary of the current system by far - roll the dice.

1b812e97b9c3f70203e8385f0867cbacdc09c9fc.gif
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we have the most money invested in it, of course we are the biggest beneficiaries. To say anyone else does or should get more is laughable.

the bones of what made America still exist, even with a collapse. the bones of what made a good chunk of the rest of the world? America being a relatively nice superpower. that is gone and a ton of them are going to be back to square 1. we may only be at square 2, but we would still be in a better spot.

of course its impossible to say what would emerge from a nuclear holocaust, but if any nation is going to reemerge or some splinter is going to survive its the US.
 
#88,181
#88,181
LouderVol said:
we have the most money invested in it, of course we are the biggest beneficiaries. To say anyone else does or should get more is laughable.

the bones of what made America still exist, even with a collapse. the bones of what made a good chunk of the rest of the world? America being a relatively nice superpower. that is gone and a ton of them are going to be back to square 1. we may only be at square 2, but we would still be in a better spot.

of course its impossible to say what would emerge from a nuclear holocaust, but if any nation is going to reemerge or some splinter is going to survive its the US.
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No, you have the most debt, you are using debt as money which is being used as a money replacement. The system ran out of money long ago. Once this system goes away, it will no longer be built on the U.S. dollar globally just like prior to the Sterling. Everyone is going to be back to square one, and you would go to Walmart with your "money" and 90% of the shelves would be bare.

The U.S. is the biggest beneficiary, so why would the U.S. cause a reset - which is what hog is suggesting in my opinion? (which is what I originally said to hog) Nobody is going to be worried about China at that stage, you're going to trying to figure out how to survive day to day.
 
#88,185
#88,185
Wow, Trump really said this. Says a lot about Trump's ideas about the rule of law and also his understanding of the basics of conflict.

“I was a little bothered by the fact that Zelenskyy was saying I have to get constitutional approval,” Trump said. “He has approval to go to war and kill everybody but he needs approval to do a land swap. Because there will be some land swapping going on. I know that through Russia and through conversations with everybody.”

Of course, Ukraine is firmly rejecting the deal:

- the land swap cannot happen without constitutional approval, and it's not a swap at all. Russia is not giving up any of its land, it'd just be withdrawing from occupied Ukrainian territory.
- strategically, giving Donbas to Russia puts them in real vulnerable shape
- Ukrainians don't want it
- Trump is undermining Ukraine's soverignty by not including them in the talks

www.theguardian.com

Trump says he and Putin will discuss ‘land swapping’ at Ukraine war summit

US president gives details on Alaska meeting and expresses frustration with Zelenskyy’s conditions for any peace deal
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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#88,186
#88,186
Putin is a KGB Soviet Patriot and his enemy list is endless..if he loses power, he loses everything, including his life. So, yea, if he is going down, he would take everyone else with him..imo.
 
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#88,187
#88,187
LSU-SIU said:
No, you have the most debt, you are using debt as money which is being used as a money replacement. The system ran out of money long ago. Once this system goes away, it will no longer be built on the U.S. dollar globally just like prior to the Sterling. Everyone is going to be back to square one, and you would go to Walmart with your "money" and 90% of the shelves would be bare.

The U.S. is the biggest beneficiary, so why would the U.S. cause a reset - which is what hog is suggesting in my opinion? (which is what I originally said to hog) Nobody is going to be worried about China at that stage, you're going to trying to figure out how to survive day to day.
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we cause the reset so that we can control it. if we control the reset we can plan a softer landing for us, and whoever we want to bring along.

*granted I don't think anyone in charge is actually smart enough to achieve that softer landing, and anyone with the power to pull it off isn't going to enact a neutral soft landing.

my point was generally focused at the recovery. even if the whole FIAT system goes away, America is still going to recover faster than anyone else. we spent a lot of our debt building other countries, including China and Russia. without us, and our debt, the whole world is going to be stuck until we decide to be nice to them again.
 
#88,188
#88,188
LouderVol said:
we cause the reset so that we can control it. if we control the reset we can plan a softer landing for us, and whoever we want to bring along.

*granted I don't think anyone in charge is actually smart enough to achieve that softer landing, and anyone with the power to pull it off isn't going to enact a neutral soft landing.

my point was generally focused at the recovery. even if the whole FIAT system goes away, America is still going to recover faster than anyone else. we spent a lot of our debt building other countries, including China and Russia. without us, and our debt, the whole world is going to be stuck until we decide to be nice to them again.
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There is no softer landing billions of people will have to go world wide and they're not going to coming back here to use your phony money. Survival will be the name of the game.

my point was generally focused at the recovery.
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You most likely will not be a part of any recovery.

the whole world is going to be stuck until we decide to be nice to them again
Click to expand...


If you are at reset, nobody is going to want your new debt - which is why the ATM would stop working. Best case many many decades from now after billions are wiped off the map and probably 100s of millions here, than the humans will go back to scamming each other with interest. There is nothing special about you, there is nothing special about your debt, there is nothing special about your paper, or your virtual paper - its all fiction.

The U.S. will probably be better off as far as culling of the unfunded liabilities (the walking kind) only for the fact that there isn't 4 billion unfunded liabilities here to cull i.e. extreme overpopulation like Asia. Billions would have to go worldwide without a functioning credit/debt system. Nobody is going to looking for the U.S. for anything as you don't produce anything they would want at that point - your debt would be worthless i.e. realization that your debt was always worthless. Its simply an illusion, your phony money is no different than everyone else's phony money, the only difference is the world selected the U.S. dollar as the reserve currency after the last global bankruptcy 1929-1945, this one will be significantly worse as the system is the significantly larger. Complete extinction is a possibility i.e. nuclear warfare.
 
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#88,190
#88,190
Godfatha said:
What makes you think he wouldn't? You're talking about taking a risk with millions of lives.
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Probably the fact that the countries he doesn't invade are the ones that are in NATO, and the fact that that he whines whenever a country he wants to annex joins NATO. Also the fact that he keeps propping up anti NATO movements in the west.

The Baltics would have been long gone if not for NATO.
 
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#88,191
#88,191
n_huffhines said:
Wow, Trump really said this. Says a lot about Trump's ideas about the rule of law and also his understanding of the basics of conflict.

“I was a little bothered by the fact that Zelenskyy was saying I have to get constitutional approval,” Trump said. “He has approval to go to war and kill everybody but he needs approval to do a land swap. Because there will be some land swapping going on. I know that through Russia and through conversations with everybody.”

Of course, Ukraine is firmly rejecting the deal:

- the land swap cannot happen without constitutional approval, and it's not a swap at all. Russia is not giving up any of its land, it'd just be withdrawing from occupied Ukrainian territory.
- strategically, giving Donbas to Russia puts them in real vulnerable shape
- Ukrainians don't want it
- Trump is undermining Ukraine's soverignty by not including them in the talks

www.theguardian.com

Trump says he and Putin will discuss ‘land swapping’ at Ukraine war summit

US president gives details on Alaska meeting and expresses frustration with Zelenskyy’s conditions for any peace deal
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Trump's words don't help the situation. And he always uses the worse possible words to describe the situation. He's an idiot. What I see, and what I think Trump may actually mean is that he's frustrated with Zelenski as a leader right now.

To create a peace deal I think everyone knows Ukraine is going to have to concede land to Russia. It sounds like the frustration lies with Zelenski being unable or unwilling to lead and make the pitch to his country what is needed next. He was excellent in leading his countries resistance, particularly in the first year or so. Ukraine needs him to lead and get the country in line now, similarly to how he was able to then.
 
#88,192
#88,192
Orangeburst said:
Putin is a KGB Soviet Patriot and his enemy list is endless..if he loses power, he loses everything, including his life. So, yea, if he is going down, he would take everyone else with him..imo.
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Agreed his wealth would collapse, but he'd still be able to live comfortably....... The real issue is he would have nowhere to go, he would be viewed as a problem for the next leader and would not be safe in Russia, he's made enough enemies and earned enough distrust he would have issues finding a safe landing spot in the world.
 
#88,193
#88,193
KB5252 said:
Trump's words don't help the situation. And he always uses the worse possible words to describe the situation. He's an idiot. What I see, and what I think Trump may actually mean is that he's frustrated with Zelenski as a leader right now.

To create a peace deal I think everyone knows Ukraine is going to have to concede land to Russia. It sounds like the frustration lies with Zelenski being unable or unwilling to lead and make the pitch to his country what is needed next. He was excellent in leading his countries resistance, particularly in the first year or so. Ukraine needs him to lead and get the country in line now, similarly to how he was able to then.
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The neocons set this up very well. Nobody wants Western Ukraine and the Ukraine loses all funding once the war ends, further Europe will be on tap as soon as this one draws closer to completion. So, European and Ukrainian leadership have to be against the end of the war unless its Russia on its knees or collapse. Further, what Russia is wanting in context i.e. disarmament of Western Ukraine seems kind of hard to complete unless a third party fills the void which seems to be fairly hard to manage. NOBODY WANTS THE UKRAINE <--- Its just a giant toilet for the world to push money and arms.

It would seem like U.S. would have to get Russia to abandon the demand of a Ukrainian disarmament (or figure out an alternative solution to this), to me that would beat the whole purpose of the operation.

The best time for real negotiations for the Ukraine was early in 2022 or the Fall of 2022, since the Fall of 2022 it has gotten basically worse for the Ukraine everyday. Today is better than tomorrow to talk, eventually it might be unconditional surrender as the only option. This could in theory still take considerable amount of time i.e. many years if not longer.
 
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#88,197
#88,197
#88,198
#88,198
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#88,200
#88,200
BeardedVol said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Trump to offer Putin minerals for peace

US president will propose money-making opportunities to encourage Russia to end Ukraine war
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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What should he offer?

I Don’t think there is any chance at peace with Putin if the talks are, “I know you’ve lost a million men, now forfeit your gains and go home.”

So, what should Trump offer that isn’t a non-starter?

I’m not being a wise guy here, I don’t know what would motivate Putin to give up the fight and the territorial gains. While I might disagree with you about what our level of involvement in Ukraine should be, I do want Ukraine to prevail over Russia, I just don’t see it happening right now.

So, what should we offer that might actually end this conflict while being acceptable to both sides?
 
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