Want To Know What's Really Embarrassing?

#301
#301
GmanTN said:
The last rebuild the program had prior to this one was when Majors took over, perhaps that was before your time but the time to rebuild still will be about the same.
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Why should it be the same? Because you decided it should be arbitrarily? It's two completely different situations.

The reason Majors had to rebuild wasn't because of a single lousy offseason or sudden coaching change. The reason Majors had to rebuild was because the head coach that preceded him was a loser and was allowed to stay here and be a loser for way too long. Sound familiar?

It used to be that most coaches took awhile to build up their programs. That's not the norm anymore. Lots of coaches (Meyer, Saban, Kelly, Carroll, etc.) come in and get almost immediate results (or within their first couple of years) now. It has become a situation where you can practically buy a championship, just by opening the money vault and getting the best guy, but Tennessee does the exact opposite and hires a proven loser on the cheap.
 
#302
#302
oregonvol said:
Why should it be the same? Because you decided it should be arbitrarily? It's two completely different situations.

The reason Majors had to rebuild wasn't because of a single lousy offseason or sudden coaching change. The reason Majors had to rebuild was because the head coach that preceded him was a loser and was allowed to stay here and be a loser for way too long. Sound familiar?

It used to be that most coaches took awhile to build up their programs. That's not the norm anymore. Lots of coaches (Meyer, Saban, Kelly, Carroll, etc.) come in and get almost immediate results (or within their first couple of years) now. It has become a situation where you can practically buy a championship, just by opening the money vault and getting the best guy, but Tennessee does the exact opposite and hires a proven loser on the cheap.
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Quite possibly the most ignorant post I have read in awhile. The roster was absolutely decimated when Dooley was hired. None of those you named nor Majors inherited a situation as bad. Saban inherited much better players and still managed to go 6-6 with a loss to ULM.

The starting point has a lot to do with how long it takes to climb out of the hole.

And this is from someone who thinks Dooley should have to do something significant THIS YEAR to come back next year. I don't think going 0-4 vs the 4 best teams on the schedule is good enough.

But to pretend he didn't inherit and absolute train wreck far worse than any of the coaches you listed is pure delusion... oh and then... he got a schedule straight out of Hades to try to build his program against.

He always had 3 years to show he belonged imo. Otherwise, the main emphasis was can he restore the foundation of the program.

I'd invite you to look back at my posts around the time of his hire. I said I hoped for one of two things. One, that he would win though I thought his chances were south of 50% of actually doing so. Two, rebuild the roster so the next guy can win. I thought he would do that and he has.
 
#303
#303
I love the argument that Dooley inherited such a terrible situation that he can't be expected to win. First of all, no one here knows what a real coach could have done with talent that Dooley was given. Second of all, just about every new coach inherits a bad situation. If the team was good, the last coach wouldn't have been fired. But yeah, it's the type of paradoxical argument that dumb fans thrive on.

"Well our program was in such a mess, Dooley can't win"
"How could you tell how bad it was?"
"Because Dooley can't win"

Nevermind that we got even worse in his second year. Or that we lost to a Kentucky team with Div II talent. No, it's all because of those two weeks between when Kiffin left and Dooley got hired.
 
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#304
#304
oregonvol said:
Why should it be the same? Because you decided it should be arbitrarily? It's two completely different situations.

The reason Majors had to rebuild wasn't because of a single lousy offseason or sudden coaching change. The reason Majors had to rebuild was because the head coach that preceded him was a loser and was allowed to stay here and be a loser for way too long. Sound familiar?

It used to be that most coaches took awhile to build up their programs. That's not the norm anymore. Lots of coaches (Meyer, Saban, Kelly, Carroll, etc.) come in and get almost immediate results (or within their first couple of years) now. It has become a situation where you can practically buy a championship, just by opening the money vault and getting the best guy, but Tennessee does the exact opposite and hires a proven loser on the cheap.
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stupid
 
#305
#305
oregonvol said:
I love the argument that Dooley inherited such a terrible situation that he can't be expected to win. First of all, no one here knows what a real coach could have done with talent that Dooley was given. Second of all, just about every new coach inherits a bad situation. If the team was good, the last coach wouldn't have been fired. But yeah, it's the type of paradoxical argument that dumb fans thrive on.

"Well our program was in such a mess, Dooley can't win"
"How could you tell how bad it was?"
"Because Dooley can't win"

Nevermind that we got even worse in his second year. Or that we lost to a Kentucky team with Div II talent. No, it's all because of those two weeks between when Kiffin left and Dooley got hired.
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We got worse because our 4-5 players that were worth a crap were replaced by Fulmer and Kiffin's players due to injuries/kicked off. How is that Dooley's fault?

Also, name me one team that has had as poor of a senior class for not 1, not 2, but 3 straight years that Dooley has inherited. I'm waiting, this should be good. You do realize we were so bad they we resorted to putting a freshman walk-on as our starting DT in 2010, who is now a 4th string TE, right?
 
#306
#306
oregonvol said:
I love the argument that Dooley inherited such a terrible situation that he can't be expected to win. First of all, no one here knows what a real coach could have done with talent that Dooley was given. Second of all, just about every new coach inherits a bad situation. If the team was good, the last coach wouldn't have been fired. But yeah, it's the type of paradoxical argument that dumb fans thrive on.

"Well our program was in such a mess, Dooley can't win"
"How could you tell how bad it was?"
"Because Dooley can't win"

Nevermind that we got even worse in his second year. Or that we lost to a Kentucky team with Div II talent. No, it's all because of those two weeks between when Kiffin left and Dooley got hired.
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The reason nobody knows what a "real coach" would have done in a similar situation, is because 7 or 8 of them didn't want anything to do with UT simply because of the situation you described.

Did you read any of the preseason magazines last year? A few of them actually said that year 2 under Dooley would be WORSE than year 1 due to a huge lack of senior leadership and a roster that was largely sophomores and freshman. That was before Jackson got the boot, before Lathers went down for the season, before Hunter tore his ACL and before Bray broke his thumb. Add that to hoping for a 6-6 2011 season at best, and suddenly 5-7 doesn't look so horrible when viewed in CONTEXT.
 
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#307
#307
It is possible to rebuild relatively quickly . . . if one has a strong instate recruiting base. The one common denominator with respect to Meyer, Carroll, and Saban, above and beyond their coaching abilities, is that they are headquartered in talent-rich states. (I can't speak with respect to the talent indigenous to Oregon so I will refrain from comment pertaining to Kelly.) When he was at Auburn, Pat Dye used to say that he could do virtually all of his recruiting within an hour's drive of Auburn. We don't have that luxury. During Tennessee's lowest ebb in talent in the last forty years, we couldn't even keep a lot of the elite instate talent at home. Randall Cobb, Patrick Turner and Golden Tate should have been wearing orange and, perhaps, would have in more productive times.

Nobody will deny the fact that Spurrier is an outstanding coach but it took him almost as long to really gain traction at South Carolina as it did for Majors to rebuild our program. Why? South Carolina may have considerably more talent than the state of Tennessee but, prior to his arrival, had no tradition whatsoever of excellence in football and, arguably, will not once he departs. Given his demonstrated strategic gift for passing offenses, I am just surprised, and glad, he has not been able to recruit truly great quarterbacks for the chicken nation.

As for Bill Battle, he was the youngest head coach in the country, having ascended to that position at the age of 28. He was and presumably still is one of the finest people we have ever had as a head coach at UT, but he simply did not recruit well at all. He had a couple of strong years with Dickey's leftovers and then steadily declined.
 
#308
#308
tvols75 said:
We got worse because our 4-5 players that were worth a crap were replaced by Fulmer and Kiffin's players due to injuries/kicked off. How is that Dooley's fault?
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Wait, what does this sentence even mean? Who was replaced by Fulmer and Kiffin's players? When Dooley took over, they were all Fulmer and/or Kiffin's players.

tvols75 said:
Also, name me one team that has had as poor of a senior class for not 1, not 2, but 3 straight years that Dooley has inherited. I'm waiting, this should be good. You do realize we were so bad they we resorted to putting a freshman walk-on as our starting DT in 2010, who is now a 4th string TE, right?
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I doubt Kentucky ever outranked us in recruiting.

Dooley has had three years to recruit. Where are the exciting, big playmaking freshmen and sophomores he's brought in?
 
#309
#309
daj2576 said:
The reason nobody knows what a "real coach" would have done in a similar situation, is because 7 or 8 of them didn't want anything to do with UT simply because of the situation you described..
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Really you talked with them? They tell you how much money they were offered or what kind of sales pitch Hamilton made? I'd love to hear these details that you have access to. Don't hold out on us now.

daj2576 said:
Did you read any of the preseason magazines last year? A few of them actually said that year 2 under Dooley would be WORSE than year 1 due to a huge lack of senior leadership and a roster that was largely sophomores and freshman. That was before Jackson got the boot, before Lathers went down for the season, before Hunter tore his ACL and before Bray broke his thumb. Add that to hoping for a 6-6 2011 season at best, and suddenly 5-7 doesn't look so horrible when viewed in CONTEXT.
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right, losing to Kentucky makes perfect sense in context.
 
#310
#310
36 scholarships gone since Fulmer was fired. Those kids went to play at Texas, USC, Oregon, Penn State, Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Michigan, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Arkansas, LSU, South Carolina, UGA, K-State, and so on.

The guys we got to fill those holes were recruited by Memphis, Vandy, UT Martin, UT Chattanooga, Western Kentucky, App State, Furman, The Citadel. and so on and so on.

Do you see my picture??? We've managed to replace Reggie White with Billy Bob Thornton.
 
#311
#311
tvols75 said:
I meant to do this yesterday, but here you go:

Shula left Saban:

John Parker Wilson and Greg McElroy at QB
Glen Coffee at RB
A great OL led by Andre Smith and Antonio Caldwell (2 All Americans).

On D, he left him:
Deaderick, Washington, Arenas, Jackson, Johnson, and McClain.

That 08 and 09 team had a lot of leadership and upperclassmen on it sprinkled with his great recruits such as Julio, Ingram, etc...
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McClain was in Saban's first class. The only guys out of the rest of those listed that were highly rated were Smith and Washington. McElroy and Wilson were nowhere near as good as the guy that Dooley was left with. I am not saying Alabama was ****, and I think LSU is a much better point of comparison. However, he didn't exactly inherit a goldmine as much as a lot of those guys hit the jackpot with the coach that came in.
 
#312
#312
oregonvol said:
Wait, what does this sentence even mean? Who was replaced by Fulmer and Kiffin's players? When Dooley took over, they were all Fulmer and/or Kiffin's players.



I doubt Kentucky ever outranked us in recruiting.

Dooley has had three years to recruit. Where are the exciting, big playmaking freshmen and sophomores he's brought in?
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You mean the ones that are putting up big offensive numbers? The best sophomore LB in the SEC? The best NT in the SEC? Two guys in Couch and Sentimore who have been really good? An offensive line who is one of the best at protecting the QB and who has done a damn good job opening holes in the running game? Can you tell me a senior that this team couldn't do without this year?
 
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#313
#313
Also, that 08 Bama team was unbelievably young from a contribution standpoint. That's all anyone talked about all year.
 
#314
#314
emainvol said:
McClain was in Saban's first class. The only guys out of the rest of those listed that were highly rated were Smith and Washington. McElroy and Wilson were nowhere near as good as the guy that Dooley was left with. I am not saying Alabama was ****, and I think LSU is a much better point of comparison. However, he didn't exactly inherit a goldmine as much as a lot of those guys hit the jackpot with the coach that came in.
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No, of course he didn't inherit a gold mine. I think McClain was committed before Saban, but I may be wrong. Anyways, the fact remains was that he was given a team that had upperclassmen that weren't ****. He could start Shula's players and then sprinkle in the studs that he brought in and be successful. Dooley had to throw his to the fire immediately. Three straight senior classes, and the highest ranked player picked in those classes was a transfer that Dooley got, if I'm not mistaken.
 
#315
#315
volbreaker said:
Too funny. It doesn't matter what the subject is, your dumba$$ never ceases to amaze me. The strange thing to me is that you can, seemingly, string together a complete sentence. Cracks me UP!
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Okay, thanks... I take it you're begging me to post this sentence again.

The problem is not negative posters, but instead negative results.

I may make that my new VN moto.
 
#317
#317
emainvol said:
Also, that 08 Bama team was unbelievably young. That's all anyone talked about all year.
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Compare it to 2010 and 2011 Vols and see how they stack up youth wise. In 3 years, we have had little to none senior leadership. Saban can't say that.
 
#318
#318
oregonvol said:
Really you talked with them? They tell you how much money they were offered or what kind of sales pitch Hamilton made? I'd love to hear these details that you have access to. Don't hold out on us now.



right, losing to Kentucky makes perfect sense in context.
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Using the same argument that you are asking me to make, tell me that those coaches didn't turn down the job.

Are you really trying to say that Dooley was the first choice, even the second, or the third?

Prove it, because your argument relies on that major assumption.


As far as the loss to Kentucky, when viewed in CONTEXT, it was the one game we lost that we were expected to win. Oddly, like it or not, UT beat Vandy when they were expected to lose, at home. It is a wash. That means that Dooley in 2011, won the games he should and lost the games he should, on average.

Or did you expect that we had the talent, depth, skill, and time in a weight room to beat RANKED Bama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas and SCAR?
 
#319
#319
tvols75 said:
Compare it to 2010 and 2011 Vols and see how they stack up youth wise. In 3 years, we have had little to none senior leadership. Saban can't say that.
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Compare it to this year's Vols team though. It's a little younger, and the results are not even in the same galaxy.
 
#320
#320
utmba93 said:
Okay, thanks... I take it you're begging me to post this sentence again.

The problem is not negative posters, but instead negative results.

I may make that my new VN moto.
Click to expand...

Couldn't fit that in... so I went with a goal instead.
 
#321
#321
tvols75 said:
Compare it to 2010 and 2011 Vols and see how they stack up youth wise. In 3 years, we have had little to none senior leadership. Saban can't say that.
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I'm sorry, it's really hard to blame the load of **** we have gotten as "lack of senior leadership." Even young teams with talent win some games and look competitive in some they aren't supposed to compete in. Dooley's teams haven't. He isn't even recruiting that well, and that is supposed to be his strong point. Everyone points at that first class and says "See, he held it together." Hell, Kippy Brown deserves more credit for keeping it together than Dooley does. My two cents.
 
#322
#322
emainvol said:
Compare it to this year's Vols team though. It's a little younger, and the results are not even in the same galaxy.
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I agree with this. The only problem I have is the roadmap was designed to go like this:

Year 1: Get the young players some experience and create excitement. For the most part the last part of the year created excitement in the fan base. I think you will agree to some extent to that.

Year 2: Continue improving the young talent and eliminate the losing culture by getting 1-2 big wins. Overall, have a decent record and "learn how to win."

Year 3: WIN!


Year 2 threw a wrench in the plan. I'm not sure what you think, but it is hard for me to believe that with Bray and Hunter healthy that at least one win would've been had vs. Florida, UGA, or USCe. You can even make the case that two wins would've been had. That would've changed the entire landscape of this year. Now we get to this year, and we still have a team that has not figured out how to win. We are definitely getting closer, and hopefully that translates these last 7 games.
 
#323
#323
emainvol said:
I'm sorry, it's really hard to blame the load of **** we have gotten as "lack of senior leadership." Even young teams with talent win some games and look competitive in some they aren't supposed to compete in. Dooley's teams haven't. He isn't even recruiting that well, and that is supposed to be his strong point. Everyone points at that first class and says "See, he held it together." Hell, Kippy Brown deserves more credit for keeping it together than Dooley does. My two cents.
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So when Bray and Hunter go down, who is supposed to combat the shock in the locker room? Tauren Poole? Austin Johnson? A lack of leadership is definitely the problem. Da'Rick would've had his ass kicked with any kind of leadership in the locker room.
 
#324
#324
tvols75 said:
No, of course he didn't inherit a gold mine. I think McClain was committed before Saban, but I may be wrong. Anyways, the fact remains was that he was given a team that had upperclassmen that weren't ****. He could start Shula's players and then sprinkle in the studs that he brought in and be successful. Dooley had to throw his to the fire immediately. Three straight senior classes, and the highest ranked player picked in those classes was a transfer that Dooley got, if I'm not mistaken.
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Was he given a team with the top running back recruit in the nation on it?
 
#325
#325
Before anyone jumps on me for the recruiting comment, that is Dooley's recruiting relative to the rest of the league.
 
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