Vols to open season agasint VCU at US Naval Acadamy

#101
#101
bleedingTNorange said:
I never proclaimed Zo as the next Bobby Knight, I said I thought he would be good and depending on your definition that's still up for debate. You're tooting Tyndall's horn at every turn, if in 3 years we haven't made the NCAAT 1 time are you gonna jump back on here saying how wrong you were and that ultimately means you're clueless about basketball?

Sparty who likes to pass himself off as the most educated and proven coach expert of all of VN, was a massive Dooley supporter through the first 2 years, we all know how that ended up, so what's your opinion of him?

Catch what I'm saying?
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I think Dooley got a raw deal and ultimately made awful decisions that brought him down. I think his personality and ego are far worse than his actual coaching ability. I don't think he's head coach material but I thought he had a chance. Of course, I also think we should have kept Kippy Brown as the interim for a year.

As far as hoops go, I was on Zo's team for while. Despite him going to China, despite alarming losses. Despite the lack of recruiting. Like Dooley, I gave Zo an opportunity because of circumstances (that paled in comparison to what Dooley took over, truth be told). I tried to ignore the red flags and I thought last year's team was stacked and that could get Zo going. Ultimately, the comparison to Dooley is valid. Hardly any big job conf wins. Recruiting was lazy. Both coaches thought themselves above the fray. And then there's the point about Martin being a poor floor coach. That discussion could go on for days.
 
#102
#102
NYC Vol said:
I think Dooley got a raw deal and ultimately made awful decisions that brought him down. I think his personality and ego are far worse than his actual coaching ability. I don't think he's head coach material but I thought he had a chance. Of course, I also think we should have kept Kippy Brown as the interim for a year.

As far as hoops go, I was on Zo's team for while. Despite him going to China, despite alarming losses. Despite the lack of recruiting. Like Dooley, I gave Zo an opportunity because of circumstances (that paled in comparison to what Dooley took over, truth be told). I tried to ignore the red flags and I thought last year's team was stacked and that could get Zo going. Ultimately, the comparison to Dooley is valid. Hardly any big job conf wins. Recruiting was lazy. Both coaches thought themselves above the fray. And then there's the point about Martin being a poor floor coach. That discussion could go on for days.
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So I'm still not following, you admit supporting Martin for 2+ years, yet because I also did I'm clueless?
 
#103
#103
bleedingTNorange said:
So I'm still not following, you admit supporting Martin for 2+ years, yet because I also did I'm clueless?
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If you want us to think little of your intelligence, you're doing a great job of being obtuse. If you can't figure out the difference between supporting a coach and thinking he's a great coach, I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I don't think you're that dumb. I just think you like to play devil's advocate. Or I did. Now I'm starting to wonder.

Say my less than 3 year old kid breaks free from me in NYC on Broadway at rush hour and "froggers" his way across safely. I'm going to "support" him making it all the way across safely. I'm not going to advocate that it was the smart and right way to cross the street and I'm thinking I probably will try not to let it happen again.

Zo coaching our program was a 3 year old crossing a busy intersection. Sure, there could be some success but chances are very, very good there's going to be a splat.
 
#104
#104
NYC Vol said:
If you want us to think little of your intelligence, you're doing a great job of being obtuse. If you can't figure out the difference between supporting a coach and thinking he's a great coach, I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I don't think you're that dumb. I just think you like to play devil's advocate. Or I did. Now I'm starting to.
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I don't recall ever calling Zo a "great" coach.
 
#105
#105
Every thread , every single thread! How about UT/VCU? This is an 8 page thread, so I'm guessing UT/VCU hasn't been discussed since page 2
 
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#106
#106
vols 30 said:
Every thread , every single thread! How about UT/VCU? This is an 8 page thread, so I'm guessing UT/VCU hasn't been discussed since page 2
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Should be a fun game, their style scares me a little with our questions at point guard, but should find out pretty quick what we got on the roster and staff.
 
#107
#107
bleedingTNorange said:
Should be a fun game, their style scares me a little with our questions at point guard, but should find out pretty quick what we got on the roster and staff.
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Agree. I'm not sure what VCU has coming back, but I'm guessing it will be entertaining nonetheless.
 
#109
#109
vols 30 said:
Every thread , every single thread! How about UT/VCU? This is an 8 page thread, so I'm guessing UT/VCU hasn't been discussed since page 2
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This is quickly becoming one of the worst forums on VN. I get the occasional off topic banter, but for those of us that don't argue over every small detail it's damn near unbearable.
 
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#110
#110
NYC Vol said:
I think Dooley got a raw deal and ultimately made awful decisions that brought him down. I think his personality and ego are far worse than his actual coaching ability. I don't think he's head coach material but I thought he had a chance. Of course, I also think we should have kept Kippy Brown as the interim for a year.

As far as hoops go, I was on Zo's team for while. Despite him going to China, despite alarming losses. Despite the lack of recruiting. Like Dooley, I gave Zo an opportunity because of circumstances (that paled in comparison to what Dooley took over, truth be told). I tried to ignore the red flags and I thought last year's team was stacked and that could get Zo going. Ultimately, the comparison to Dooley is valid. Hardly any big job conf wins. Recruiting was lazy. Both coaches thought themselves above the fray. And then there's the point about Martin being a poor floor coach. That discussion could go on for days.
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You mention Dooley's ego and poor personality, but Nick Saban has those same attributes and is ultra successful. Urban Meyer too. Same for Les Miles. It is overlooked when you win. Dooley couldn't do that. Not even at an average level.

Speaking completely objectively, Martin is 10x the coach Dooley was. He beat several nationally ranked teams in his tenure at Tennessee. That isn't an endorsement of Martin, and it doesn't make Martin a GOOD coach, but the Dooley comparison is purely hyperbole.
 
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#112
#112
bleedingTNorange said:
This has been addressed time and time again, the answers around if you truly wanna know, but I doubt that's the case.
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You have posted over 38,000 times in almost 2.5 years. Sorry, I don't have the time that you obviously do to dig through your posts. Whatever the reason, I still think it's weird and creepy as hell. You obviously don't.
 
#114
#114
cncchris33 said:
You mention Dooley's ego and poor personality, but Nick Saban has those same attributes and is ultra successful. Urban Meyer too. Same for Les Miles. It is overlooked when you win. Dooley couldn't do that. Not even at an average level.

Speaking completely objectively, Martin is 10x the coach Dooley was. He beat several nationally ranked teams in his tenure at Tennessee. That isn't an endorsement of Martin, and it doesn't make Martin a GOOD coach, but the Dooley comparison is purely hyperbole.
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What you say about Saban and Urban is definitely true. The difference is those guys put in their time and, though I don't want to say it, "earned" the right to be pricks and crap on people. Saban went through the ranks and worked his way up as a HC. So did Urban. Dooley? Not so much.

As for the Dooley/Martin comparison, basketball coaches are always going to win more games. Even Wade Houston won 19 games and beat a few good teams. It's just easier in basketball to win given home court and there are so many games. Given that Zo coached around 120 games at UT, of course he was going to win a few. It's basketball. But overall, the direction of our program was going south and was going to continue going that way. Zo's only saving grace was that the SEC was so bad. Even so, we were sliding back to the bottom of the pack next year and then beyond. He was Dooley-esque in every way except for being a prick. Actually, Dooley's recruiting was better.
 
#115
#115
I can't get over how so many posters feel so damn sure Martin had zero chance to succeed. Many of these have already proclaimed Tyndall as a great UT coach. Fact is we're pretty much back to where we were when Martin was first hired, only Tyndall came with more experience and some post season appearances. Tyndall was absolutely a better hire, but its pretty unfair to expect him to be a great coach here only based on him having a more personable demeanor.

I feel pretty much the exact same way as this time 3 years ago: justifiably optimistic, but assuming nothing.

Like I've said a million times, let's see what happens before we make serious judgments.
 
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#116
#116
NYC Vol said:
What you say about Saban and Urban is definitely true. The difference is those guys put in their time and, though I don't want to say it, "earned" the right to be pricks and crap on people. Saban went through the ranks and worked his way up as a HC. So did Urban. Dooley? Not so much.

As for the Dooley/Martin comparison, basketball coaches are always going to win more games. Even Wade Houston won 19 games and beat a few good teams. It's just easier in basketball to win given home court and there are so many games. Given that Zo coached around 120 games at UT, of course he was going to win a few. It's basketball. But overall, the direction of our program was going south and was going to continue going that way. Zo's only saving grace was that the SEC was so bad. Even so, we were sliding back to the bottom of the pack next year and then beyond. He was Dooley-esque in every way except for being a prick. Actually, Dooley's recruiting was better.
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I'm not using # of wins as the measure of success between Dooley and Martin. I'm using the quality of wins. Dooley literally never beat, in three years, one team he shouldn't have. Martin beat Florida 3x, he beat UK, he beat UCONN.

The fact that Dooley's recruiting was better, and he still couldn't manufacture a single signature win doesn't help your argument.

The ineptness of Derek Dooley is unprecedented at Tennessee. There is no comparison. He is the benchmark by which all future flops and failures will be judged. Martin was no John Wooden, but he was no Derek Dooley either. People just want to use that comparison for shock value and because it is stained in our recent memory. Again, this is not an endorsement of Martin, but more of an indictment of Dooley, and how historically awful he really was.
 
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#117
#117
Chris4Vols22 said:
I can't get over how so many posters feel so damn sure Martin had zero chance to succeed. Many of these have already proclaimed Tyndall as a great UT coach. Fact is we're pretty much back to where we were when Martin was first hired, only Tyndall came with more experience and some post season appearances. Tyndall was absolutely a better hire, but its pretty unfair to expect him to be a great coach here only based on him having a more personable demeanor.

I feel pretty much the exact same way as this time 3 years ago: justifiably optimistic, but assuming nothing.

Like I've said a million times, let's see what happens before we make serious judgments.
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I dont think Zo was going to succeed bc he was not recruiting at a high enough level to maintain success. The National media stated some coaches didnt want the Tenn job bc of the way the roster looked. Our new coach in 3 weeks had a higher rated recruiting class than the one Zo had brought in.

I havent seen anyone claiming that CDT is our savior but there is a natural excitement when a new coach takes over. There was the same kind of comments when Zo took over. So far, CDT has done as good a job as he possibly can but how he recruits in the future will determine his fate here. Cant wait for the first game....GO VOLS!!!
 
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#118
#118
volbeast33 said:
I dont think Zo was going to succeed bc he was not recruiting at a high enough level to maintain success. The National media stated some coaches didnt want the Tenn job bc of the way the roster looked. Our new coach in 3 weeks had a higher rated recruiting class than the one Zo had brought in.

I havent seen anyone claiming that CDT is our savior but there is a natural excitement when a new coach takes over. There was the same kind of comments when Zo took over. So far, CDT has done as good a job as he possibly can but how he recruits in the future will determine his fate here. Cant wait for the first game....GO VOLS!!!
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Let's see if the entirety of Tyndall's class makes it onto the court. But we have plenty of reason to believe he can recruit. All I have to say is that Stokes and Richardson led us to the Sweet 16.
 
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#119
#119
On the thread topic...

ESPN has been counting down the top 50 NCAA coaches. Shaka Smart came in at #13. That's pretty damn high IMO.
 
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#120
#120
Chris4Vols22 said:
Let's see if the entirety of Tyndall's class makes it onto the court. But we have plenty of reason to believe he can recruit. All I have to say is that Stokes and Richardson led us to the Sweet 16.
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Thats true but the point wasnt that he recruited so well that he passed him but that the other class was rated pretty low. Its true Stokes and Richardson played huge roles in getting us their and were good gets by Zo. Without Mcrae and Maymon, Tennessee doesnt sniff the tourney. Its bc Zo hadnt recruited well enough to have competent replacements.
 
#121
#121
Chris4Vols22 said:
I can't get over how so many posters feel so damn sure Martin had zero chance to succeed. Many of these have already proclaimed Tyndall as a great UT coach. Fact is we're pretty much back to where we were when Martin was first hired, only Tyndall came with more experience and some post season appearances. Tyndall was absolutely a better hire, but its pretty unfair to expect him to be a great coach here only based on him having a more personable demeanor.

I feel pretty much the exact same way as this time 3 years ago: justifiably optimistic, but assuming nothing.

Like I've said a million times, let's see what happens before we make serious judgments.
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Very true, it's the same thing as Butch though after Dooley, you would think he's the sencond coming of Saban. I can't count how many posts I've seen in the football forum saying they wouldn't trade Butch for Saban or any other coach in America.

Now I completely understand why there's excitement and optimism, the guy has knocked it out of the park recruiting, but still. It seems like it's a requirement when there's a coaching change to light up the previous coach, and declare the next one as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
#122
#122
cncchris33 said:
I'm not using # of wins as the measure of success between Dooley and Martin. I'm using the quality of wins. Dooley literally never beat, in three years, one team he shouldn't have. Martin beat Florida 3x, he beat UK, he beat UCONN.

The fact that Dooley's recruiting was better, and he still couldn't manufacture a single signature win doesn't help your argument.

The ineptness of Derek Dooley is unprecedented at Tennessee. There is no comparison. He is the benchmark by which all future flops and failures will be judged. Martin was no John Wooden, but he was no Derek Dooley either. People just want to use that comparison for shock value and because it is stained in our recent memory. Again, this is not an endorsement of Martin, but more of an indictment of Dooley, and how historically awful he really was.
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As I said above, football is a different animal than basketball. You have top 5 Kansas losing on the road to one of the worst major conf teams on the country. If you just get on the court you're bound to win some games as an underdog. And please don't include a win vs a non tourney UK team. Better to include the win over a barely top 25 Wich St team.

One big road victory in his UT career and that was at UF. That's the measure of winning ball. Winning games on the road. Martin was a disaster. He recruited terribly. Dooley was awful as well. Maybe Dooley was worse. At their respective levels of awfulness, you're splitting hairs.
 
#123
#123
NYC Vol said:
As I said above, football is a different animal than basketball. You have top 5 Kansas losing on the road to one of the worst major conf teams on the country. If you just get on the court you're bound to win some games as an underdog. And please don't include a win vs a non tourney UK team. Better to include the win over a barely top 25 Wich St team.

One big road victory in his UT career and that was at UF. That's the measure of winning ball. Winning games on the road. Martin was a disaster. He recruited terribly. Dooley was awful as well. Maybe Dooley was worse. At their respective levels of awfulness, you're splitting hairs.
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I am no way a Martin fan I kinda liked him his first year then it went down hill for me but you have to put the win at Texas a&m in 3 ot on his résumé as a top win
 
#124
#124
NYC Vol said:
As I said above, football is a different animal than basketball. You have top 5 Kansas losing on the road to one of the worst major conf teams on the country. If you just get on the court you're bound to win some games as an underdog. And please don't include a win vs a non tourney UK team. Better to include the win over a barely top 25 Wich St team.

One big road victory in his UT career and that was at UF. That's the measure of winning ball. Winning games on the road. Martin was a disaster. He recruited terribly. Dooley was awful as well. Maybe Dooley was worse. At their respective levels of awfulness, you're splitting hairs.
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If your opinion of Martin is that he was a disaster and in any fashion comparable to Dooley, we likely won't find a common ground.

Again, I'm not endorsing Martin as a good coach, but IMO, he's not even in the same ballpark as Dooley. You seem to have the impression that I'm trying to convince you that Martin was successful, and that's not the case. However, he's not the worst UT basketball coach, or even second worst in my lifetime (35 years). Dooley is widely considered one of the worst coaches of all time in the SEC, let alone UT. Martin's teams got better every season, and Dooley, despite being a better recruiter, seemed to get worse every season. You can argue that Martin was about to fall off a cliff from a talent perspective, but that is purely speculation now. Based on what we do know, it seems silly to compare the 3rd worst coach at his own program in 35 years to arguably the worst head coach of all time in his own conference.

We can agree to disagree though.
 
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#125
#125
Martin was a decent coach. We were going to probably have some pretty good years like this year, but too much inconsistency to make enough people happy. Martin's best qualities were his high character and that he recruited high character kids for the most part. He is a better person than he is a coach which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Dooley was a silver spooned coached. He had pretty much been given everything because of his name. He was too aloof, didn't want to do the dirty work in recruiting and only looked somewhat competent in the early going because he had two pretty good coordinators bailing him out. Once Wilcox left, the wheels pretty much fell off. When almost the entire staff bolted after year 2, that told you all you needed to know.
 
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