Vols practice thread Wednesday

sjt18

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I am really not trying to be difficult, nor am I "defending" JG, but all three touchdown's thrown by both QBs were on aggressive deep throws. The Average Yards per completion was 20.8 for JG versus 17.4 for Shrout. Again, the numbers do not back up the Upstaging of JG by JTS that I was commenting on in my post. The JG detractors change what stats are important for a QB whenever it is convenient to meet their agenda. Again, I am not a JG fanatic, per say, but I cannot stand "Fans" that absolutely obsess over being derogatory toward any player. It is nothing personal, just putting out the numbers and my opinion.
I would say”upstage” mostly because Shrout performed similarly with no experience. If JG played a “great” game or massive improvement then Shrout should not have compared as well as he did

when you view with experience as the background, Shrout looked better for his stage of development than JG. Neither looked “bad” but UAB provided more perspective on both. Especially Shrout
 

Pride85

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I would say”upstage” mostly because Shrout performed similarly with no experience. If JG played a “great” game or massive improvement then Shrout should not have compared as well as he did

when you view with experience as the background, Shrout looked better for his stage of development than JG. Neither looked “bad” but UAB provided more perspective on both. Especially Shrout
Again, there is always someone trying to come up with a reason to denigrate JG. Do you think Shrout or Maurer would have survived playing behind two of the worst O-lines in UT history. Do you think they would have been able to adjust to four different OCs and four different QB coaches in four years? That aspect has been a strong detriment to his overall development. It is not like he has spent the last four years with the exact same offensive scheme.
 

sjt18

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Again, there is always someone trying to come up with a reason to denigrate JG. Do you think Shrout or Maurer would have survived playing behind two of the worst O-lines in UT history.
Shrout? Don’t know. Maurer if his injuries aren’t indicative of susceptibility? Absolutely. Simple reason is that he anticipates well then delivers the ball quickly and accurately The OL hasn’t been great but JG being so slow in decision making contributed significantly to the hits he took and the overall problems.
Do you think they would have been able to adjust to four different OCs and four different QB coaches in four years?
Frankly yes. Maurer is a true fr who hasn’t been freaked out by a “new” OC. Shrout seems about where he would have been

This is probably the lamest of all the excuses. They didn’t go from the wishbone to the gun and gun. They didn’t introduce a bunch of new patterns. Opposing Ds didn’t change radically. You’re trying to argue that none of the four or at least the previous 3 could coach him even though they’d coached others successfully. Even Freshmen

That aspect has been a strong detriment to his overall development. It is not like he has spent the last four years with the exact same offensive scheme.
Massively overstated. There are way more similarities than differences and few of the differences have direct relations to his weaknesses
 

Pride85

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Shrout? Don’t know. Maurer if his injuries aren’t indicative of susceptibility? Absolutely. Simple reason is that he anticipates well then delivers the ball quickly and accurately The OL hasn’t been great but JG being so slow in decision making contributed significantly to the hits he took and the overall problems.
Frankly yes. Maurer is a true fr who hasn’t been freaked out by a “new” OC. Shrout seems about where he would have been

This is probably the lamest of all the excuses. They didn’t go from the wishbone to the gun and gun. They didn’t introduce a bunch of new patterns. Opposing Ds didn’t change radically. You’re trying to argue that none of the four or at least the previous 3 could coach him even though they’d coached others successfully. Even Freshmen

Massively overstated. There are way more similarities than differences and few of the differences have direct relations to his weaknesses
I am going to ask one more question and a statement then I am done allowing the two of us to waste space on this forum. Are you honestly going to say that the offense that Butch Jones ran, especially with Larry Scott calling the plays; the offense that Tyson Helton ran and the offense that Jim Chaney runs are interchangeable? Understand this, I like the excitement that BM brings to the offense if he can survive, but I do not consider 2 TDs versus 5INTs not being "freaked out" by a new OC. As I have stated before, making quick decisive bad decisions is NOT better than making the right decision too late. It is the flip side of the same coin. BOTH are just as bad.
 

DiderotsGhost

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Yup. UK gets an off week and we are beat to hell with major injury issues on the Oline. That’s when losses happen.

Bad scheduling luck.
Agree. This game scares me more than any other remaining game. I think everyone is discounting Kentucky because "we always beat them" and we beat them last year during one of their best seasons in program history.

Rationally, we match up pretty well. Our defense stiffled them last year and it's reasonable to expect us to give them major issues this year as well.

But just feel like Kentucky is going to come out ready to play their best game of the year. It's in Lexington. Our offense has struggled a lot (outside of that SC game) and Kentucky's D has been good. We have 3 banged up QBs. Many of our best OL are out or playing injured. And Kentucky gets an extra week to prepare for us. Even if our D plays well, we still have to outscore them which isn't a given right now.

If we escape with a 1 point win, I'll be ecstatic.
 

butchna

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Again, there is always someone trying to come up with a reason to denigrate JG. Do you think Shrout or Maurer would have survived playing behind two of the worst O-lines in UT history. Do you think they would have been able to adjust to four different OCs and four different QB coaches in four years? That aspect has been a strong detriment to his overall development. It is not like he has spent the last four years with the exact same offensive scheme.
If there was an award for suffering physical pain whilst playing QB at UT, it would’ve been named for Matt Simms. Didn’t make him a better QB than the one that took his job. Same principle applies. Yeah...JG went through hell! He still has to advance the team! Make the throws that continue drives. Deliver in the red zone. Make good DECISIONS.
 

Pride85

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If there was an award for suffering physical pain whilst playing QB at UT, it would’ve been named for Matt Simms. Didn’t make him a better QB than the one that took his job. Same principle applies. Yeah...JG went through hell! He still has to advance the team! Make the throws that continue drives. Deliver in the red zone. Make good DECISIONS.
I agree 100%. All three have to make the right decision on time. None of them are there yet.
 
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ABINGDON VOL FAN

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A few points here:

Both were about 12 yards per attempt.

JG snaps were approximately double the number if JT’s.

JG had 19 attempts. JT 11 attempts
Comp %. Jg 58 JT 64%

JT made several great throws in his first significant game action ever that JT has never made and he has been in the program 4 years.

JT recognized where the pressure was coming from much quicker than JG ever has and was able to move from the pocket and make a completion or throw the ball away and avoid the sack. This is the area where JG has consistently failed in his career.
 

sjt18

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I am going to ask one more question and a statement then I am done allowing the two of us to waste space on this forum. Are you honestly going to say that the offense that Butch Jones ran, especially with Larry Scott calling the plays; the offense that Tyson Helton ran and the offense that Jim Chaney runs are interchangeable?
Are you going to ask honest questions or build more straw men?

I didn't say they were "interchangeable". I said they were more alike than similar. I said they didn't introduce whole new concepts or skills or patterns. They didn't change the defenses UT faces. You and others have COMPLETELY blown that out of proportion. There are freshman right now making better and faster decisions in the passing game than JG. There are sophomores who had a OC change that have adapted to their new scheme just fine.

JG didn't really change systems under Jones. It was always Jones' O with his finger prints all over it.

Understand this, I like the excitement that BM brings to the offense if he can survive, but I do not consider 2 TDs versus 5INTs not being "freaked out" by a new OC.
Understand this. Those "stat" lines tell part of the story. I have posted several times here a direct comparison of JG vs BM against Bama, UGA, and MSU. Really the ONLY thing JG did that was better was play so safe that he didn't turn the ball over. Maurer in less minutes had more than twice the yardage. He threw the ball deeper. He had more ypc and ypa. He had a higher % of catchable balls. The only significant stat he did less well in were his INT's. He threw 2 TD's to JG's 1 in those games. One of those INT's was a perfect pass to JJ.

As I have stated before, making quick decisive bad decisions is NOT better than making the right decision too late. It is the flip side of the same coin. BOTH are just as bad.
And you are completely wrong in this instance. One can be coached up. The other cannot. One at least gives you a chance to move the O and score points. The other does not.


You keep riding this hobby horse that JG is just fine and people just look for reasons to denigrate him. That's simply not so. These are persistent problems with his play. Things he has not been able to fix even with a lot of effort. It isn't personal or anything like that. He just appears to be fatally flawed in ways that prevent the O from being effective.
 

sjt18

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I agree 100%. All three have to make the right decision on time. None of them are there yet.
Two likely have upside available to build on. One in particular has made mistakes along with plays JG hasn't made in 4 years. Those mistakes can be corrected.

JG is still too slow making decisions and too risk averse. He's too often late and short with deep throws. He avoids throwing into "windows" in the middle of the field. Someone taught him to play "safe". It took much too well.

JG really hasn't changed much if at all from last year... and that just isn't good enough.

If Maurer or Shrout do not improve then they shouldn't keep the job either.
 

Pride85

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A few points here:

Both were about 12 yards per attempt.
Used Yards per completion for the reasons shown below.

JG snaps were approximately double the number if JT’s.
I don't know where you are going with this as JGs total yardage was also about double.

JG had 19 attempts. JT 11 attempts
Comp %. Jg 58 JT 64%
As stated earlier, completion % has been ruled out by the "experts" on this board as a valid stat to evaluate QBs for the VOLS.

JT made several great throws in his first significant game action ever that JT has never made and he has been in the program 4 years.
Here are the overall stats for all three QBs: The first number is overall ranking for yards completion.
Passing Rushing
Rk Player From To Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate Att Yds Avg T
9 Jarrett Guarantano 2017 2019 337 546 61.7 4191 7.7 7.8 27 10 138.9 138 -132 -1.0 1
39 Brian Maurer 2019 2019 27 55 49.1 426 7.7 4.4 2 5 108.0 19 30 1.6 2
62 JT Shrout 2019 2019 13 27 48.1 179 6.6 7.4 1 0 116.1 3 4 1.3 0


Please tell me which of those values scream the two freshmen are light years ahead of JG. Both are going to be excellent QBs in the future. Neither are their yet. You like completion %, both are sub 50%. Neither has a QB rating that is anything special yet. Again both will be great, but the stats show they are not there yet.

JT recognized where the pressure was coming from much quicker than JG ever has and was able to move from the pocket and make a completion or throw the ball away and avoid the sack. This is the area where JG has consistently failed in his career.
I will agree with you here. JG has still got the "where is the next guy gonna hit me from" mindset. If he can stop looking at the pass rush and look downfield, he does much better. Right now, he only seems to do that when he is coming in off the bench.

My stats were per completion, you can't use yards per attempt because they don't record the distance of the incomplete pass. You could 10 for 10 with 10 20 yard completions for a 20 ypa average. You could also have a QB that is 4 for 10 with four 50 yard completions for a 20 ypa average. Which did better?

Expand above to see the full responses in orange to the points made.
 

Pride85

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Two likely have upside available to build on. One in particular has made mistakes along with plays JG hasn't made in 4 years. Those mistakes can be corrected.

JG is still too slow making decisions and too risk averse. He's too often late and short with deep throws. He avoids throwing into "windows" in the middle of the field. Someone taught him to play "safe". It took much too well.

JG really hasn't changed much if at all from last year... and that just isn't good enough.

If Maurer or Shrout do not improve then they shouldn't keep the job either.
NP. You don't like JG and don't care if anyone else does better or not as long as he does not play, got it.
 
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sjt18

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NP. You don't like JG and don't care if anyone else does better or not as long as he does not play, got it.
That is simply false. But it is where you need to go because you cannot refute objective criticisms of REAL issues with him. All I want is for UT to have a winning QB. A guy who leads the team to points and wins. He isn't. I wish he were. It would be much better for UT and all involved if he were.

I "like" JG just fine. I appreciate that he's worked hard. He's tough. He's stuck with it when many might have quit. He seems to be a good guy. But he has shortcomings as a QB. They've been there since he arrived. Any time he plays they hold the O back. People like you will gladly throw any and everyone else under the bus for some reason to avoid seeing JG's issues.

He throws a beautiful ball. He's got as much physical talent as you need. But there is something in the mental part of the game that just doesn't click.

Bottom line... NO. I don't want him to start or play until he shows he can improve in significant ways. He's a RS Jr. A TON of time has been invested in him by people inside and outside the program. He still has the same issues. They appear to be innate and possibly unchangeable.

Shrout's TD pass makes a GREAT illustration. He threw it on time and out in front of Callaway giving MC the opportunity to run after the catch. JG threw that exact same pattern to MC earlier in the game. It was late and short. MC had to slow down for the ball enabling the DB to make a play. MC made the catch but had to wrestle the DB for it. He went down right where he caught it. That's not a one time thing with JG. He does it consistently.
 
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I am really not trying to be difficult, nor am I "defending" JG, but all three touchdown's thrown by both QBs were on aggressive deep throws. The Average Yards per completion was 20.8 for JG versus 17.4 for Shrout. Again, the numbers do not back up the Upstaging of JG by JTS that I was commenting on in my post. The JG detractors change what stats are important for a QB whenever it is convenient to meet their agenda. Again, I am not a JG fanatic, per say, but I cannot stand "Fans" that absolutely obsess over being derogatory toward any player. It is nothing personal, just putting out the numbers and my opinion.
I have nothing against JG or anything you have said, but one stat I know hasn't been very good for JG is the Win/Loss stat. That stat is the most important IMO. If the team rally's better around a different QB, I am inclined to go with the QB my team has the most confidence in. I know the Wins and Losses are not completely JG's fault, its a team effort, but several losses along the way have been due to poor QB play. A consistent effort would be nice to see at the QB position.
 

Pride85

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That is simply false. But it is where you need to go because you cannot refute objective criticisms of REAL issues with him. All I want is for UT to have a winning QB. A guy who leads the team to points and wins. He isn't. I wish he were. It would be much better for UT and all involved if he were.

I "like" JG just fine. I appreciate that he's worked hard. He's tough. He's stuck with it when many might have quit. He seems to be a good guy. But he has shortcomings as a QB. They've been there since he arrived. Any time he plays they hold the O back. People like you will gladly throw any and everyone else under the bus for some reason to avoid seeing JG's issues.

He throws a beautiful ball. He's got as much physical talent as you need. But there is something in the mental part of the game that just doesn't click.

Bottom line... NO. I don't want him to start or play until he shows he can improve in significant ways. He's a RS Jr. A TON of time has been invested in him by people inside and outside the program. He still has the same issues. They appear to be innate and possibly unchangeable.

Shrout's TD pass makes a GREAT illustration. He threw it on time and out in front of Callaway giving MC the opportunity to run after the catch. JG threw that exact same pattern to MC earlier in the game. It was late and short. MC had to slow down for the ball enabling the DB to make a play. MC made the catch but had to wrestle the DB for it. He went down right where he caught it. That's not a one time thing with JG. He does it consistently.
I am going to break my rule of stopping. You obviously do not read my posts, except for the parts you want to see. The one thing you are correct is the mental part for JG and I have mentioned it numerous times this year. The sheer number of hits he has taken has made him look at the pass rush before he looks at the receivers. That is why he is late. He looks at the defense pre-snap, but more from a "who is going to kill me this time" aspect. He does better when he comes off the bench. Go back and watch the throws that he has made since being removed as the starter. His throws have been much quicker and much more on target. He has hit several receivers in stride in the last three games. Even his interception against UAB was on time and on target, just threw a dumb pass into double coverage. The one pass you mention from JT Shrout was a thing of beauty. He could not have walked out there and handed it to Calloway any better. If he could do that on more than 50% of his passes, I would be singing his praises as well. 47% completion is not good by any definition. His passer rating is several points higher than Maurer as well, but neither are at elite level yet. I want whomever is in the game to succeed, but I look at the data, not the appearance. If BM tears it up the rest of the year, I will cheer loudly. If JT Shrout sets the world on fire, I will jump for joy. I will do exactly the same for JG as well. If you respond to this post, fine and dandy. I will not respond any further.
 

Pride85

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I have nothing against JG or anything you have said, but one stat I know hasn't been very good for JG is the Win/Loss stat. That stat is the most important IMO. If the team rally's better around a different QB, I am inclined to go with the QB my team has the most confidence in. I know the Wins and Losses are not completely JG's fault, its a team effort, but several losses along the way have been due to poor QB play. A consistent effort would be nice to see at the QB position.
That is the only stat that is used most effectively against JG. But that is also dependent on the team around you, and that is just now coming up to anything approaching a level acceptable for UT. The younger QBs will benefit from that improvement, but could they have done any better over the past couple of years? Remember, JG does not have the actual W attached to his name over the last few wins, but he has played the bulk of the minutes in all of them.
 

sjt18

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I am going to break my rule of stopping. You obviously do not read my posts, except for the parts you want to see.
Read every word of those addressed to me. Several times more than once.
The one thing you are correct is the mental part for JG and I have mentioned it numerous times this year.
I didn't always respond where we agreed. Sorry if that was confusing.

The sheer number of hits he has taken has made him look at the pass rush before he looks at the receivers. That is why he is late.
Disagree. He got hit because he was so consistently late. He's always held the ball too long. Right now, he is last among 21 qualifying QB's in time to throw. It takes him 2.81 seconds on average. Last year, he was 18th out of twenty with 2.78 seconds.

He looks at the defense pre-snap, but more from a "who is going to kill me this time" aspect.
No. He looks and apparently doesn't recognize that he needs to find his hot read. The guy just makes decisions too slow and isn't great at pre or post snap reads.

He does better when he comes off the bench. Go back and watch the throws that he has made since being removed as the starter. His throws have been much quicker and much more on target.
He's thrown mid level crossing routes better.... but only when the receiver had two or three steps on the coverage. They don't throw RPO slants much with him. They can't trust him to read that quickly.

He has hit several receivers in stride in the last three games.
Crossing routes. Yes. He has been decent at throws to the outside all along. They must "feel" safe to him. He's not throwing into windows or throwing guys open. He's late and short on almost every throw deeper than 20 yards.

Even his interception against UAB was on time and on target, just threw a dumb pass into double coverage. The one pass you mention from JT Shrout was a thing of beauty. He could not have walked out there and handed it to Calloway any better. If he could do that on more than 50% of his passes, I would be singing his praises as well. 47% completion is not good by any definition.
In the last two games, Shrout is 10 for 17 with a TD and 157 yards. If we are going to attach the first two appearances by Shrout and Maurer to them as a means of declaring them "not good" then JG's 4 for 12 for 41 yards vs Indiana St and 2 for 5 for -3 yards vs UMass needs to be mentioned every time "stats" are thrown out to defend JG. The second game there wasn't even mop up. Jones was so determined for JG to "win" the job that he almost lost that game by inserting him and wasting drives.

His passer rating is several points higher than Maurer as well, but neither are at elite level yet.
And expecting that would be a little too much. Expecting JG to be MUCH closer to that level than he is after 4 years... isn't unreasonable. But instead he has topped out well below that. The others we can hope have untapped potential. JG appears to be what he is... and it isn't good enough to help win games.

I want whomever is in the game to succeed, but I look at the data, not the appearance.
You look at the data only in a way convenient to your conclusion without fleshing it out then comparing it to what you see with your eyes.

If BM tears it up the rest of the year, I will cheer loudly. If JT Shrout sets the world on fire, I will jump for joy. I will do exactly the same for JG as well. If you respond to this post, fine and dandy. I will not respond any further.
I don't mind your responses. We can joust and not draw blood.

I will cheer for the Vols. I hope that whoever plays whichever position excels. I've just watched JG for almost 3 seasons. You see the OL failing. I see that. There were some glaring failures. But you don't see JG other than nice looking "stats". I do see him being slow and not making good timely decisions. Then this year, the OL has improved significantly in pass protection... but JG isn't much if any better. You still don't see the fatal flaws.

Respond if you like. I won't hold it against you either way.
 

ABINGDON VOL FAN

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I will agree with you here. JG has still got the "where is the next guy gonna hit me from" mindset. If he can stop looking at the pass rush and look downfield, he does much better. Right now, he only seems to do that when he is coming in off the bench.

My stats were per completion, you can't use yards per attempt because they don't record the distance of the incomplete pass. You could 10 for 10 with 10 20 yard completions for a 20 ypa average. You could also have a QB that is 4 for 10 with four 50 yard completions for a 20 ypa average. Which did better?

Expand above to see the full responses in orange to the points made.
I will comment on one point made regarding YPA. Most football analysts did consider YPA as the most important stat when grading a Qb’s effectiveness. That has been replaced somewhat by the new Qbr ratings but even then YPA is heavily considered in those ratings.
 

Pride85

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I will comment on one point made regarding YPA. Most football analysts did consider YPA as the most important stat when grading a Qb’s effectiveness. That has been replaced somewhat by the new Qbr ratings but even then YPA is heavily considered in those ratings.
Look at the QB ratings of the three. Let me know which of the three you would pick if you had no preconceived notions about the three.
 
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ABINGDON VOL FAN

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Look at the QB ratings of the three. Let me know which of the three you would pick if you had no preconceived notions about the three.
Are you talking about one game or the whole season ? Regardless of the ratings we know JG is not a good Qb and is play and leadership cost us the first two games and he directly contributed to a 21 point swing in the Alabama game. We lost by 22.
 

Sarms58

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If there's anything that worries me this week, it's how banged up we are right now. Particularly not having Morris and Wright at full health is problematic.

Think our defense should be alright, but I expect this to be a close game.
kind of wish this was our off week...but at least we do get two weeks before we play misery..
 

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