Vols Path to the East Division

[dd4vols]

Nobody likes the backdoor

not necessarily true... :shaking2:

 

[MWAVolfan]

Tennessee's two toughest games come out of the west. So when predicting losses you'd have to start there. Tennessee SHOULD beat every team in the east, but they won't. I predict they lose to three of them one of them will be the annual "game you have no business losing". My guess this year is that Kentucky will get those honors although a loss at home to USCe is not out of the question.

UT will lose 3 of the first 5 games putting Jones squarely on the hot seat, but as you'll see the back end of the schedule will save his bacon.

My prediction would be losses to Bama, UF, UGA, and either UK or USCe. Throw on top of that a loss to GT.

I think we beat LSU, giving Butch Jones his "savior victory" late in the season to secure his job for 2018(UT will win all 4 games in November after the season is for all intents and purposes over having lost 5 games already).

7-5 is the record. Music City Bowl is the post season. UT will win that game keeping Butch's record of winning meaningless bowl games perfect.

2018 will then be touted as "the year", after we land a top 10 recruiting class, and that Butch will finally win the east like has been said the last two years and thus the cycle of insanity continues.

 

[photovol]

Our path ! Undefeated! Tennessee is a lot better than anyone knows ! Last year was talent with no discipline and this team is talent plus capable coaches and a pissed off VOLS team ! Story of the year , TENNESSEE FOOTBALL BABY!

Not likely, but you get my Votek:

 

[photovol]

Tennessee's two toughest games come out of the west. So when predicting losses you'd have to start there. Tennessee SHOULD beat every team in the east, but they won't. I predict they lose to three of them one of them will be the annual "game you have no business losing". My guess this year is that Kentucky will get those honors although a loss at home to USCe is not out of the question.

UT will lose 3 of the first 5 games putting Jones squarely on the hot seat, but as you'll see the back end of the schedule will save his bacon.

My prediction would be losses to Bama, UF, UGA, and either UK or USCe. Throw on top of that a loss to GT.

I think we beat LSU, giving Butch Jones his "savior victory" late in the season to secure his job for 2018(UT will win all 4 games in November after the season is for all intents and purposes over having lost 5 games already).

7-5 is the record. Music City Bowl is the post season. UT will win that game keeping Butch's record of winning meaningless bowl games perfect.

2018 will then be touted as "the year", after we land a top 10 recruiting class, and that Butch will finally win the east like has been said the last two years and thus the cycle of insanity continues.

Anything from 5-6 to 7-5 is quite possible, don't you think?

 

[MWAVolfan]

Anything from 5-6 to 7-5 is quite possible, don't you think?

It's all possible. I think beyond Alabama our schedule is very winnable. 11-1 should not be considered out of the realm of possibility until you factor in leadership.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Id saw they rarely show much on the field discipline. A disciplined team doesnt give up that td to vandy in year one. Doesnt give up 4-14 td to Florida in year 3, usc and Vandy in year 4.
The trend is to always drop a game we should.

I think you're confusing different factors, lumping them all under 'discipline'.

For instance, those 4th-and-long plays we gave up against Florida (and Oklahoma) in 2015 weren't discipline issues, so much as they were lack of depth. Our players were simply gassed by the 4th quarter, because we didn't have the quality depth to rotate in all game long. So they were tired out by the 4th.

Not discipline. Depth and conditioning.

Discipline is not playing your position. Is getting snagged for a costly rules violation, like the Foreman pass interference penalty in the end zone against Oklahoma a couple of years back.

Team 120 suffered a systemic lack of on-field discipline. But the teams before them, 119 and 118 in particular, were very well-disciplined teams on the field. Didn't one of them end the year as the least-penalized team in the SEC, and one of the best in the country in that stat?

So yeah, your mantra that Butch coaching = bad on-field discipline just isn't ringing true. Only really a consideration in the 2016 season.

 

[jakez4ut]

I think you're confusing different factors, lumping them all under 'discipline'.

For instance, those 4th-and-long plays we gave up against Florida (and Oklahoma) in 2015 weren't discipline issues, so much as they were lack of depth. Our players were simply gassed by the 4th quarter, because we didn't have the quality depth to rotate in all game long. So they were tired out by the 4th.

Not discipline. Depth and conditioning.

Discipline is not playing your position. Is getting snagged for a costly rules violation, like the Foreman pass interference penalty in the end zone against Oklahoma a couple of years back.

Team 120 suffered a systemic lack of on-field discipline. But the teams before them, 119 and 118 in particular, were very well-disciplined teams on the field. Didn't one of them end the year as the least-penalized team in the SEC, and one of the best in the country in that stat?

So yeah, your mantra that Butch coaching = bad on-field discipline just isn't ringing true. Only really a consideration in the 2016 season.

i agree. i think the failures of the previous seasons were more to do with coaching decisions than lack of discipline.

in fact, that was one of the more disappointing things about last year....teams under CBJ up to that point have had flaws, but really, they generally were fairly disciplined football teams....

coaching blunders aside, discipline on the field with TO's, penalties etc...really weren't a huge issue....until last year, where it seems we made up for lost time in that department.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

i agree. i think the failures of the previous seasons were more to do with coaching decisions than lack of discipline.

in fact, that was one of the more disappointing things about last year....teams under CBJ up to that point have had flaws, but really, they generally were fairly disciplined football teams....

coaching blunders aside, discipline on the field with TO's, penalties etc...really weren't a huge issue....until last year, where it seems we made up for lost time in that department.

If we had to narrow each season's losses down to a single cause, and we all know it's nowhere near that simple, but if we had to find the "single proximate cause" of most losses each year in the Butch era, here's how I'd probably shake it out:

-- 2013 - lack of talent
-- 2014 - lack of depth
-- 2015 - lack of execution (coaching and player mistakes on Saturdays)
-- 2016 - injuries

Since the current discussion is on discipline, I'll note that I did NOT include it as the primary cause of losses in any of those years, but it would certainly be the #2 reason for losses in 2016, after the decimation of our D-Line and LB corps.

Or maybe lack of team synergy (the Hurd factor) would be #2 and discipline would be #3. Somewhere in there.

 

[jakez4ut]

If we had to narrow each season's losses down to a single cause, and we all know it's nowhere near that simple, but if we had to find the "single proximate cause" of most losses each year in the Butch era, here's how I'd probably shake it out:

-- 2013 - lack of talent
-- 2014 - lack of depth
-- 2015 - coaching mistakes
-- 2016 - injuries

Since the current discussion is on discipline, I'll note that I did NOT include it as the primary cause of losses in any of those years, but it would certainly be the #2 reason for losses in 2016, after the decimation of our D-Line and LB corps.

with the benefit of hindsight, you can go back to 13 and 14 and see coaching errors as well in games we were in position to win.

anywho...doesn't matter. last year sucked from a discipline standpoint, no one really can argue that point.

and last year, you could put 7 turnovers in the aTm game directly as a reason for losing.....

and though we didn't lose UGA, FL, ASU, Ohio or VT....those issues were there...in spades....penalties, drops, misses and turnovers.

 

[VolsRule]

It's a rebuilding year for UT, but UGA and Fla will also be down this year. The division is wide open.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

with the benefit of hindsight, you can go back to 13 and 14 and see coaching errors as well in games we were in position to win.

With the benefit of hindsight, you can find coaching errors in just about every football game ever played, even astounding victories.

*shrug* coaches and players make mistakes. Every Saturday. They're human, the game is complex, each game runs 120-180 different plays, and there are at least one, often two or three opportunities for each coach and each player to make a mistake on each play. Multiply all that together, and it's amazing we don't see MORE mistakes with the luxury of hindsight.

But I wouldn't call execution (players or coaches) the proximate cause of losses in '13 or '14. Those were the rebuilding years, and THAT lack of talent-->experience is where those years were at.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It's a rebuilding year for UT, but UGA and Fla will also be down this year. The division is wide open.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think we have to rebuild any more. '13 and '14 were the rebuilding years.
We're at the 'reload and keep going' level now.

 

[jakez4ut]

With the benefit of hindsight, you can find coaching errors in just about every football game ever played, even astounding victories.

*shrug* coaches and players make mistakes. Every Saturday. They're human, the game is complex, each game runs 120-180 different plays, and there are at least one, often two or three opportunities for each coach and each player to make a mistake on each play. Multiply all that together, and it's amazing we don't see MORE mistakes with the luxury of hindsight.

But I wouldn't call execution (players or coaches) the proximate cause of losses in '13 or '14. Those were the rebuilding years, and THAT lack of talent-->experience is where those years were at.

i agree.

 

[jakez4ut]

I respectfully disagree. I don't think we have to rebuild any more. '13 and '14 were the rebuilding years.
We're at the 'reload and keep going' level now.

eye of the beholder. i think when you're replacing the kind of talent we are at key spots, plus the coaching changes, it's more rebuild, than re load. this off season has more of a 2015 feel to it, than 2016.

now, next year, 2018....i'm in on the reloading.

plus, on the "keep going", that can mean different things to different people. i'm sure you probably mean it as keep going in the "up" direction, moving toward bigger/better things. others may see that as keep going in the "same" direction....8 wins, 2nd tier bowl.

and it's hard to say re loading when you have such a wide range of opinions on what 121 might look like...10-2, or 7-5....when i think of reloading....it's 9, 10+ win teams that continue to perform at, or above, that level, regardless of who comes back the following year.

not saying you're wrong. just my .02.....:thumbsup:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

eye of the beholder. i think when you're replacing the kind of talent we are at key spots, plus the coaching changes, it's more rebuild, than re load. this off season has more of a 2015 feel to it, than 2016.

now, next year, 2018....i'm in on the reloading.

plus, on the "keep going", that can mean different things to different people. i'm sure you probably mean it as keep going in the "up" direction, moving toward bigger/better things. others may see that as keep going in the "same" direction....8 wins, 2nd tier bowl.

and it's hard to say re loading when you have such a wide range of opinions on what 121 might look like...10-2, or 7-5....when i think of reloading....it's 9, 10+ win teams that continue to perform at, or above, that level, regardless of who comes back the following year.

not saying you're wrong. just my .02.....:thumbsup:

Well, by "keep going," I mean striving for championships. Every year. Reload and keep going.

That doesn't mean every year is necessarily going to be better than the one before. It certainly doesn't mean winning a championship every year. Even the very best teams have a bit of a sinusoidal curve from season to season ... Bama for instance: down a few wins one year, back up a couple the year after (wins over past 8 years: 14, 10, 12, 13, 11, 12, 14, 14). But always striving for championships.

That's where we're headed, I think. Always reloading and striving.

As for this coming season? If we end up 6-6 or worse in the regular season, I'll eat crow and admit we needed to rebuild the two-deep. But if I'm right, we'll go 8-4 or better, and that's definitely not having to step back and rebuild anything. It's not where we want to end up, but it's not having to rebuild, either.

Go Vols!

 

[IknoxvolsI]

If we had to narrow each season's losses down to a single cause, and we all know it's nowhere near that simple, but if we had to find the "single proximate cause" of most losses each year in the Butch era, here's how I'd probably shake it out:

-- 2013 - lack of talent
-- 2014 - lack of depth
-- 2015 - lack of execution (coaching and player mistakes on Saturdays)
-- 2016 - injuries

Since the current discussion is on discipline, I'll note that I did NOT include it as the primary cause of losses in any of those years, but it would certainly be the #2 reason for losses in 2016, after the decimation of our D-Line and LB corps.

Or maybe lack of team synergy (the Hurd factor) would be #2 and discipline would be #3. Somewhere in there.

All of which are excuses.

 

[sjt18]

If we had to narrow each season's losses down to a single cause, and we all know it's nowhere near that simple, but if we had to find the "single proximate cause" of most losses each year in the Butch era, here's how I'd probably shake it out:

-- 2013 - lack of talent
-- 2014 - lack of depth
-- 2015 - lack of execution (coaching and player mistakes on Saturdays)
-- 2016 - injuries

Since the current discussion is on discipline, I'll note that I did NOT include it as the primary cause of losses in any of those years, but it would certainly be the #2 reason for losses in 2016, after the decimation of our D-Line and LB corps.

Or maybe lack of team synergy (the Hurd factor) would be #2 and discipline would be #3. Somewhere in there.

My skepticism on Jones isn't the things he could not control but the things he could.

The first two years in particular. The explanations for the last two years are more complex but seem to continue the same "string" or trend of performance. At the very bottom of it, Jones has underperformed the talent he's had by at least 1 win per year. Vandy year 1. UF year 2. UF, OU, or (and especially) Arkansas year 3. USCe and Vandy year 4.

I would argue his decisions concerning the coaching staff and S&C staff contributed to injuries and execution. But beyond that... UT simply had better players than Ark, Vandy, or USCe. Jones and the program look entirely different without those 3 losses.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

UT simply had better players than Ark, Vandy, or USCe. Jones and the program look entirely different without those 3 losses.

On that, SJT, we agree entirely.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

All of which are excuses.

Nope, an excuse is, by definition, a false cause given to divert attention from one's own errors.

When it's the true cause, like '13 and '14 being huge rebuilding years and us having a lack of talent and experience, then it's not an excuse. Because it's the real cause.

When I say '15 was lack of execution (coaching and players), if you believe that's the excuse, what do you think the real cause is? Huh? Oh, coaching? So you agree with me, actually.

And when we say injuries in '16, that's not an excuse. That's the reason teams were running 300-500 yards per game on us, because our interior DLine was decimated, complicated by us missing our best LB who could have shored up a weaker DT rotation but wasn't there to do it.

None of that is excuses.

But I can see a troll wanting to call it that, because troll.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Nope, an excuse is, by definition, a false cause given to divert attention from one's own errors.

When it's the true cause, like '13 and '14 being huge rebuilding years and us having a lack of talent and experience, then it's not an excuse. Because it's the real cause.

When I say '15 was lack of execution (coaching and players), if you believe that's the excuse, what do you think the real cause is? Huh? Oh, coaching? So you agree with me, actually.

And when we say injuries in '16, that's not an excuse. That's the reason teams were running 300-500 yards per game on us, because our interior DLine was decimated, complicated by us missing our best LB who could have shored up a weaker DT rotation but wasn't there to do it.

None of that is excuses.

But I can see a troll wanting to call it that, because troll.

Excuses are that: spoken causations for not getting it done!

As much as any Vol fan, the first year was painful. The program was in total shambles. The second year, however, was better. Not drastically but it was better. He should have done better! Those three losses in '15 and the way last year played out was inexcusable! Period!

Since you don't want Butch to be held accountable (he is the HC after-all) then maybe you need to start a thread just for pumpers and be the leader!

Pumper😉

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Sure, I'm all for Butch being accountable. For what he does. And so far, what he's done has been to bring this program out of the Dark Ages. So I hold him accountable, and applaud his efforts.

He hasn't been perfect, he's human, he makes mistakes. On Saturdays, and in front of a microphone. That doesn't mean he hasn't done very well by our program so far.

If you weren't such a troll, even you (as a fan of, what, Florida?) would admit that.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Sure, I'm all for Butch being accountable. For what he does. And so far, what he's done has been to bring this program out of the Dark Ages. So I hold him accountable, and applaud his efforts.

He hasn't been perfect, he's human, he makes mistakes. On Saturdays, and in front of a microphone. That doesn't mean he hasn't done very well by our program so far.

If you weren't such a troll, even you (as a fan of, what, Florida?) would admit that.

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly that he brought us out of a very dismal place. My point of contention is that he stopped after year two.

Instead of keeping on keeping on and building, he topped out. For me, that was evident with the Ark, Okla and Fla losses of '15.

Like most fans, give him benefit of the doubt, we're still young, coaches need to mesh, etc. etc. etc.

The that massive goose egg last year!

We got rid of a HOF coach because mediocrity wasn't the starus quo here. I, for one, don't think it's going to advance the program to trade a former HOF coach who no longer could get it done for another that can't.

 

[zjcvols]

How often has the Tennessee-Georgia game decided anything? Once?

Not since Zook was at UF.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly that he brought us out of a very dismal place. My point of contention is that he stopped after year two.

Instead of keeping on keeping on and building, he topped out. For me, that was evident with the Ark, Okla and Fla losses of '15.

Like most fans, give him benefit of the doubt, we're still young, coaches need to mesh, etc. etc. etc.

The that massive goose egg last year!

Oh, I see, so you're saying Butch brought us out of the Dark Ages, and then "topped out" with his second (7-6) season, in '14. That was his peak, is what you're saying?

Hmm. You have a weird way of trolling, because you make no sense whatsoever.

Oh...and by "massive goose egg," last year, you mean when we won zero games, as in 0, a "goose egg" of wins? Help me out here, not understanding troll.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

Oh, I see, so you're saying Butch brought us out of the Dark Ages, and then "topped out" with his second (7-6) season, in '14. That was his peak, is what you're saying?

Hmm. You have a weird way of trolling, because you make no sense whatsoever.

Oh...and by "massive goose egg," last year, you mean when we won zero games, as in 0, a "goose egg" of wins? Help me out here, not understanding troll.

I don't expect you to understand much, there JP. Too much sunshine around you.

His second year was the last building year. After that, he stopped building. The past two years have leveled off. You know, same story different year. Lose games he should have won. Lose games he was suppose to win.

I know that is going to be difficult to understand. But, if you dissolve some of that shine, it might help.