Very Concerned

#26

BigOrangeMojo

The Member to Remember
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
3,292
Likes
9,469
#26
Although I dislike disparaging one of our coaches without cause, and I still don't have enough evidence to disparage Holly, you're stating an obvious reality, Mojo. Conference play is far more important than is pre-conference play; more necessary for making the best possible run in the dance. I suppose UT's name and Pat's legacy have pretty well maintained the talent influx, but...like compared with Coach Barnes' products...the development of Holly's players as individuals, and her teams as a whole, just don't seem to come together as well. 'Not even close. I dunno. Who else is out there who'd come to Knoxville and do better than she's done? Any ideas?
I don't think it is disparaging; it's more of a question of "What are the expectations of the program?" If we are Ole Miss or Mizzou, then what Holly has done would be sufficient.

I know this is an "Apples to Oranges" comparison but given the historical pedigree of both programs, an interesting one.

Let's say Nick Saban retired from Bama after this season. The first season after Saban retired, the team was good but missed the CFB playoff. The second year, the team was not quite as good and was not near the CFB playoff. The third year, the team was a little better but still missed the CFB playoff. By this time, most of Saban's players are gone and the team reverts towards the middle of the SEC for years 4, 5, and 6. It gets passed by a couple SEC teams and loses to Tennessee 4x straight. Does Saban's replacement get a 7th year? (Or even a 6th year?)
 
#27

alaVOL

ORANGE U THANKFUL
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
7,380
Likes
2,751
#27
Watching our recent games, watching other elite teams on television, there is reason for great concern about the performance of our very talented players. We appear disjointed, as if we have not even prepared, as if we are again regressing. There is no flow to our offense, a poor defensive design...just watch Baylor, UConn or the other top teams, friends we are not among those teams, we are living on Pat Summitt’s legacy.,,time is up! This is Lady VOLS Basketball...we have lost the elite team performance, that is all about coaching!!
Enlightenment is shinning.
 
#28

Volfan2012

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
14,644
Likes
7,884
#28
I am hoping eventually that we will have a team that has three or four juniors and seniors instead of sophomore and freshmen. Last season we had a couple seniors and freshmen. This year we have two seniors but they are not the major players. We will still have a very good season this year. I never thought we were winning the National title when the season began or even advancing to the final four. The hope is to get to the elite 8 and that will be a task but would be a major accomplishment for this team.

I also knew everyone was playing for second behind Miss St in the SEC and still are.
 
#29

kxtop

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
597
Likes
361
#29
Same thing is happening to women's basketball that happened to football, slow decline and then the icy stretch before the cliff. Get control now or be forever lost.
That is exactly the fear. Too many, for their own personal, albeit uninformed, reasons, are refusing to see what is plainly in front of them. This program, even with great recruiting classes, continues to perform at a very marginal level. Still in disbelief? Objectively watch a Baylor, UConn or Notre Dame game and compare the level of performance, the precision of passing, the quality of the offensive performance, the effective defenses. Then watch the Lady VOLS, we are simply not performing as a team at that level. To continue to believe that we are not in a continuing downward spiral is not reality. Football has shown how long it takes to come back. Being a “has been” is not acceptable! Over 10 years since our last National Championship, or even being in a serious hunt for that Championship is unacceptable. Sorry that the current coaching staff is not performing but good management militates that a change be made at the end of this season, especially while this job is still one to die for!
 
#30

LordBolton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
1,261
Likes
1,210
#30
Would a 12-2 Men's basketball coach be on the hot seat?

What if the Vols are 12-2 at one point this year? Would we be very concerned about them? Would people give CRB down the road? Have the men ever made the final four?
It may be because UT's men's team, although they are great right now, are not the team that put the entire sport on the map. The Lady Vols are. So they get more scrutiny. Kentucky's men get the same scrutiny, their women's team does not.
 
#31
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
4,075
Likes
4,376
#31
I don't think it is disparaging; it's more of a question of "What are the expectations of the program?" If we are Ole Miss or Mizzou, then what Holly has done would be sufficient.

I know this is an "Apples to Oranges" comparison but given the historical pedigree of both programs, an interesting one.

Let's say Nick Saban retired from Bama after this season. The first season after Saban retired, the team was good but missed the CFB playoff. The second year, the team was not quite as good and was not near the CFB playoff. The third year, the team was a little better but still missed the CFB playoff. By this time, most of Saban's players are gone and the team reverts towards the middle of the SEC for years 4, 5, and 6. It gets passed by a couple SEC teams and loses to Tennessee 4x straight. Does Saban's replacement get a 7th year? (Or even a 6th year?)
Nope, they would hire Coach Jumper
 
#32

VOLPAT

Active Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
44
Likes
41
#32
I don't think it is that much to be concerned about. We won the game everywhere except the scoreboard. We won the turnover battle, the rebound battle and had 14 more shots at goal than they did. I guess you could be concerned about our inability to make free throws or easy shots around the basket. I guess you could be concerned about us getting absolutely nothing yesterday from our senior perimeter player. Game is still about scoring although we controlled the game they made the shots. 35 percent want win against anybody that includes Belmont, UAB, etc.
I never thought we would shoot that type of percentage again and well guess it will happen. Just chalk that one up to inability to put the ball in the basket when we had the shots. Their defense didn't stop us we couldn't make anything no one was very good. If this team needs to practice anything it is making layups and short jumpers. 40 percent shooting not much to ask wins this game so why can't this team make the easy shots. Maybe it is time for the coaches to work with them on what they need to do or where we go from here. The point being anytime we shoot 35 percent expect to lose and you should.
You must be kidding. This team has been missing layups, not finishing, standing around and leaving countless points on the floor, for years. There is a serious coaching problem here, not a talent problem, this year.
 
#33
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
4,075
Likes
4,376
#33
You must be kidding. This team has been missing layups, not finishing, standing around and leaving countless points on the floor, for years. There is a serious coaching problem here, not a talent problem, this year.
I get the feeling with this group, like the players and the staff are ALL on their own page.

Got to get it to one vision.
 
#34

TN1111

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
816
Likes
735
#34
Although I dislike disparaging one of our coaches without cause, and I still don't have enough evidence to disparage Holly, you're stating an obvious reality, Mojo. Conference play is far more important than is pre-conference play; more necessary for making the best possible run in the dance. I suppose UT's name and Pat's legacy have pretty well maintained the talent influx, but...like compared with Coach Barnes' products...the development of Holly's players as individuals, and her teams as a whole, just don't seem to come together as well. 'Not even close. I dunno. Who else is out there who'd come to Knoxville and do better than she's done? Any ideas?
Wes Moore... I know I and others have brought his name up numerous times. Ironically, during the broadcast yesterday, Debbie Antonelli was speaking highly of him and how he can do more with less. Look at where he now has N.C State. He can flat-out coach. Does it mean we'd always win every game? -of course not. But we'd look like a well coached team -- and I really think that's what most here are yearning for.
 
#35

VOLPAT

Active Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
44
Likes
41
#35
I don't think it is disparaging; it's more of a question of "What are the expectations of the program?" If we are Ole Miss or Mizzou, then what Holly has done would be sufficient.

I know this is an "Apples to Oranges" comparison but given the historical pedigree of both programs, an interesting one.

Let's say Nick Saban retired from Bama after this season. The first season after Saban retired, the team was good but missed the CFB playoff. The second year, the team was not quite as good and was not near the CFB playoff. The third year, the team was a little better but still missed the CFB playoff. By this time, most of Saban's players are gone and the team reverts towards the middle of the SEC for years 4, 5, and 6. It gets passed by a couple SEC teams and loses to Tennessee 4x straight. Does Saban's replacement get a 7th year? (Or even a 6th year?)
Gone at the end of year two. Look, it's hard. Holly is a loyal Vol, player and assistant. Pat wanted her to follow her. Everyone wanted her to succeed. It's just not happening. Pat Summitt placed the highest expectations on herself and The Lady Vols. Girls are able to lace up their shoes and play basketball all around the world because of her. You have to wonder, what would she say about all this.
 
#38

Nute Gunray

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
545
Likes
650
#38
I believe she does have a vision...but,
I'm not convinced everyone's on board with it...
You hit the nail on the head! Holly is unable to get everyone on board with her vision because she is unwilling to assert herself to a leadership role with the team. She is continuing to act like an assistant coach.
 
#39

munsterlander

No one of consequence.
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
945
Likes
655
#39
Watching our recent games, watching other elite teams on television, there is reason for great concern about the performance of our very talented players. We appear disjointed, as if we have not even prepared, as if we are again regressing. There is no flow to our offense, a poor defensive design...just watch Baylor, UConn or the other top teams, friends we are not among those teams, we are living on Pat Summitt’s legacy.,,time is up! This is Lady VOLS Basketball...we have lost the elite team performance, that is all about coaching!!
"Watching our recent games..."?

We have a multi-year track record of utter mediocrity. Padded win percentage against weak programs, futility against the best programs. There hasn't been any flow to our offense in years. Or perhaps better to say there hasn't been any offense, period. There is no "hell no" in our defense.

Sorry, we do agree this is all about coaching. But I'm baffled by any sense that this is something for which concern would occur now, after this particular loss, as if - what, this was the year it would all of a sudden be different? The previous several years weren't a clear enough indication?

I usually don't say a word all season, and at the end of the year, repeat the only comment I made the previous year. No question she's a VFL. She will n_e_v_e_r get us back. But really starting to think what's the point. I hope it matters to CPF.
 
Last edited:
#40

mike099

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,223
Likes
864
#40
Wes Moore... I know I and others have brought his name up numerous times. Ironically, during the broadcast yesterday, Debbie Antonelli was speaking highly of him and how he can do more with less. Look at where he now has N.C State. He can flat-out coach. Does it mean we'd always win every game? -of course not. But we'd look like a well coached team -- and I really think that's what most here are yearning for.
Bingo, Wes is the coach I would go after if there is a change.
 
#41

ReelfootVol

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,466
Likes
446
#41
You might be surprised. AD Fulmer is no light weight as it relates to business (otherwise I'll leave this subject alone) and yes he is the business end of UT sports. Don't be surprised by the end of this season, if this team does not show real improvement, she moves on one way or the other.
I will definitely have to see it to believe it !!!!
 
#42

lvocd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
1,424
Likes
3,255
#42
My guess is that Holly will be the head coach until she reaches the age of maximum retirement benefit. She’s 60 years old now, so if inthe UT system she’ll receive full benefits at age 62, then she’ll coach two more years. If she needs to be 65 to retire with maximum benefits, then she’ll be the coach for five more years. There are likely plenty of people anxious to reward her lifelong attachment to Tennessee with the option to retire with no need to go find another coaching job she really doesn’t want simply to bridge the gap of time to when she reaches legal full-retirement age. Leaving Tennessee before then ain’t gonna happen because I would bet the farm that she does NOT want to coach/live anywhere else. Tennessee is her life, and that's perfectly understandable. She’ll stick around to retire from there. End of story.
 
Last edited:
#43

VOLINVONORE

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
8,176
Likes
3,833
#43
It may be because UT's men's team, although they are great right now, are not the team that put the entire sport on the map. The Lady Vols are. So they get more scrutiny. Kentucky's men get the same scrutiny, their women's team does not.
Double Barn's salary and let him coach both teams. The turn around for the Lady Vols would be amazing.
 
#44

Volfan2012

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
14,644
Likes
7,884
#44
Double Barn's salary and let him coach both teams. The turn around for the Lady Vols would be amazing.
I always said if we ever decide to hire another women's coach Michael Schwartz is the guy. He has made a huge difference in Tennessee players since he got here for year three. I don't know if Barnes would let him go if that ever became a possibility and don't know if he would be interested in women's coaching. The guy is gonna be a head coach somewhere someday he is a very talented Assistant that can really coach.
 
#45

Nute Gunray

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
545
Likes
650
#45
I always said if we ever decide to hire another women's coach Michael Schwartz is the guy. He has made a huge difference in Tennessee players since he got here for year three. I don't know if Barnes would let him go if that ever became a possibility and don't know if he would be interested in women's coaching. The guy is gonna be a head coach somewhere someday he is a very talented Assistant that can really coach.
Schwartz would take the job in a heartbeat. His present salary is $275.000. Holly's present salary is $675,000. A head coaching job is a head coaching job no matter the gender of the players.
 
#46
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
4,075
Likes
4,376
#46
Schwartz would take the job in a heartbeat. His present salary is $275.000. Holly's present salary is $675,000. A head coaching job is a head coaching job no matter the gender of the players.
You're single, right?
(Bygones)

No matter the gender.?
Have you coached both?
The girls would eat him for lunch if all he has coached is males.
Especially at this level.
 
#47

Jravol78

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2016
Messages
2,734
Likes
1,787
#47
This is my 1st ever post on the WBBF but I have a scenario to throw out there and want the opinions of some of the regular posters on this forum . I have watched the Lady Vols my entire life (I am 41) and still watch them in the big games , although recently it seems like every time I watch they lose .
I know Coach Summitt basically hand picked Holly to be the heir apparent . I also know that statistically Holly has a decent record & is a good recruiter . I further know that this once proud program has not hung a meaningful banner from the rafters of TBA in over a decade . Let’s just play hypotheticals here and say that there was still a separate Women’s atheletic department . Let’s go even further and say that Coach Pat Summitt was the AD of this hypothetical Department. Would hypothetical AD Summitt still have CHW on the payroll or would she have made the tough call & fired CHW? If so when ? If not what would it take for her to make the difficult call? IMHO it would have happened @ the end of last year. I will ask about what Joan Cronan would have done after a few responses .
Thanks !
 
#50

glv98

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
549
Likes
1,133
#50
IMO its very disingenuous to shrug off the Missouri loss as just a bad shooting night for the starting guards. There's far more to the story as anyone who's watched even casually for the last 3/4 of a decade would know.

They had a bad shooting night because they took bad shots because they fell into the ugly, disjointed, desperation clusterf we see so often in place of actual execution. Some of "layups" missed were of the all-too-familar twisting, falling, throw up a prayer variety. Look no farther than the paltry number of assisted baskets, I think 7, compared to the 18 assists at Auburn where we, what do you know, won the game.

Barnes comparisons are already getting old, but I was struck by something he said in a pregame interview before his Missouri game. Asked what he would do when the inevitable rough spots during tough SEC road games occurred he answered that he'd regroup the team, refocus them, remind them to play WITHIN themselves, to stick to the offensive plan they know. Ya'll see the men's Missouri game? That's exactly what happened.

Conversely, the LVs so often play WITHOUT themselves, with their sideline totally unable or unwilling to refocus them and return them to any semblance of a plan or execution. While the men listen to the Beatles Within You Without You, LVs been listening to way too much Widespread Panic. This has been the case the entire Warlick tenure, and is why sadly she needs to replaced.

By the way, the songs are metaphorical, I realize none of these kids have heard of any of that old time music!
 
Last edited:

VN Store



Sponsors
 

Top