USA Today: What to like about No. 18 Tennessee

[Iam4utalways]

I am not going to worry about any coaching hot seats or changes, any worst case scenarios, or even recruiting beyond what we just finished. Zero hand-wringing here.

I choose to follow UT football because I enjoy it and its fun and I am proud to be a Tennesseean.

Every new season is a fresh one, and there will be awesome plays that I will enjoy. The unexpectedness of what 18 and 19-yr olds might do, and how an odd shaped football will bounce only adds to the wide-eyed thrill of it.

So looking forward to this fall. Just like I do every year.

Well put.

 

[johnrlansford]

Dooley was a risk taken on basis of pedigree and the widely held opinion that he had La Tech moving from an awful state to good things. UT needed someone like they thought Dooley was- credible, Saban tree, "name", etc.

Jones built a record in the MAC against losing teams. I'm not going through the effort to demonstrate it again because you obviously don't want to hear it... but the average winning % of the teams he beat at Cincy was less than 40%.

It doesn't matter, if we hired a Big 10 coach with the same record as Saban had when hired at LSU, the fans would go crazy calling for everyone in the Athletic Departments jobs. It just wasn't a high profil higher like people want around here!!!

 

[jakez4ut]

It doesn't matter, if we hired a Big 10 coach with the same record as Saban had when hired at LSU, the fans would go crazy calling for everyone in the Athletic Departments jobs. It just wasn't a high profil higher like people want around here!!!

that's just not true. would there be some? yeah, as there would be with anybody they'd bring in.

and the feelings on butch have evolved to what they are today. it didn't start like this....

as for high profile...timing has a lot to do with that, as there just aren't that many high profile guys available.

and we did make an honest attempt at Gruden, Muschamp (while still as TX DC), who were two of the hottest names at the time.

but no one seriously thinks we're luring Meyer, Saban, Sweeney, or guys of that ilk, away from their current job. OSU got lucky with meyer...was in TV when he took that job. Bama got lucky with Saban too, considering his NFL situation went south fast.

and nobody thought Dabo would be "DABO" when they promoted him.

there's no formula. it only has to do with how much of a priority you put on it. OSU and Bama ponied up and got their "guy". timing, money, etc....all aligned and it happened.

and don't forget there's a guy named Chip Kelly that's out there. and he'll probably be out there next off season. and i'd wager he'll be highest profile name available next off season. and someone will make it a priority to upgrade their existing situation.

and i'm not saying we should be that someone.

but if the priority changes, and you align all things that need aligned, then........it becomes an option.

 

[1974Vol]

Beat Bana and it would wonderful season

It would be great to beat BAMA as well!

 

[BeardedVol]

It doesn't matter, if we hired a Big 10 coach with the same record as Saban had when hired at LSU, the fans would go crazy calling for everyone in the Athletic Departments jobs. It just wasn't a high profil higher like people want around here!!!

No. It is possible to hire a coach that shows a lot of potential in a lower-tier conference, but has yet to succeed on Saban's level since that seems to be the only attribute you are concerned with,but neither Dooley nor Jones fit that bill.

Dooley by his own admission was flabbergasted by the fact that anyone, much less Mike Hamilton, would call and offer him another HC job , and Jones never won more than 5 conference games in his previous stop, nor did he ever outright win the conference. His resume, no matter how much you want to spin it as quality, has "middling coach" written all over it. Based off his days at Cincinnati, none of us should really be surprised about what we've seen over the last four seasons.

 

[jakez4ut]

No. It is possible to hire a coach that shows a lot of potential at in a lower-tier conference, but has yet to succeed on Saban's level since that seems to be the only attribute you are concerned with,but neither Dooley nor Jones fit that bill.

Dooley by his own admission was flabbergasted by the fact that anyone, much less Mike Hamilton, would call and offer him another HC job , and Jones never won more than 5 conference games in his previous stop, nor did he ever outright win the conference. His resume, no matter how much you want to spin it as quality, has "middling coach" written all over it. Based off his days at Cincinnati, none of us should really be surprised about what we've seen over the last four seasons.

hind sight is what it is. the Jones hire at the time, didn't make a huge splash, but it was widely considered a fairly solid hire. and it has been up to this point. there wasn't anything on his resume that screamed "awful". to the contrary, he had a solid resume. were there criticisms and questions? sure. how much of his success at CMU and Cincy were tied to riding Brian Kelley's coattails? could he recruit at the level needed in the SEC at a program like TN? typical questions you'd probably expect for anyone with that type of background. but nothing alarming.

he's just to that point where the legitimate question is can he do more? can he reach another level other than "being better than dooley"? which i think is plenty fair.

 

[1974Vol]

The most frustrating thing about the last couple of seasons is the Vols didn't have to be better than they were to have had back to back seasons we would all (most all) be delighted with. 2015 just don't let Florida off the hook and make one more defensive play at Bama and boom what a season. Last year just beat USCe and Vandy down the stretch and the Vols are back to back SECE Champions. Then this thread could be about will Jones ever win the big game (SECC)? Which is the next step to why can't he make the Playoff followed by why can't he win the Natty? All of which are threads I long to read and comment on.

 

[jakez4ut]

The most frustrating thing about the last couple of seasons is the Vols didn't have to be better than they were to have had back to back seasons we would all (most all) be delighted with. 2015 just don't let Florida off the hook and make one more defensive play at Bama and boom what a season. Last year just beat USCe and Vandy down the stretch and the Vols are back to back SECE Champions. Then this thread could be about will Jones ever win the big game (SECC)? Which is the next step to why can't he make the Playoff followed by why can't he win the Natty? All of which are threads I long to read and comment on.

agreed. to be so close and still feel so far away is indeed frustrating.

 

[BeardedVol]

hind sight is what it is. the Jones hire at the time, didn't make a huge splash, but it was widely considered a fairly solid hire. and it has been up to this point. there wasn't anything on his resume that screamed "awful". to the contrary, he had a solid resume. were there criticisms and questions? sure. how much of his success at CMU and Cincy were tied to riding Brian Kelley's coattails? could he recruit at the level needed in the SEC at a program like TN? typical questions you'd probably expect for anyone with that type of background. but nothing alarming.

he's just to that point where the legitimate question is can he do more? can he reach another level other than "being better than dooley"? which i think is plenty fair.

I didn't say his resume "screamed awful", but there's not much on CBJ's resume from his time at CMU or Cincinnati, that anyone would call impressive. He followed Brian Kelly around, and left the programs after he ran out of Kelly's recruits, and had a worse record in the Big East than he did in the MAC. Now he has a worse record in the SEC than he had in the Big East. In all actuality, he's following the same pattern of having less success at each step up in conference.

 

[jakez4ut]

I didn't say his resume "screamed awful", but there's not much on CBJ's resume from his time at CMU or Cincinnati, that anyone would call impressive. He followed Brian Kelly around, and left the programs after he ran out of Kelly's recruits, and had a worse record in the Big East than he did in the MAC. Now he has a worse record in the SEC than he had in the Big East. In all actuality, he's following the same pattern of having less success at each step up in conference.

ok. and i think i basically said as much in my reply, w/out the venom. no one was talking about his record in that light when he was hired nationally, it was pretty well accepted as a good hire at the time. and i don't think anyone is going to get up in arms about having a worse recrod in the SEC vs. the Big East. i think that probably would be expected, given the difference in competitiveness between the two leagues, and the condition UT was when he got here. so that doesn't bother me in and of itself.

not sure what you're getting at, sounds like we basically agree. on paper, solid hire, with some legit questions about how his previous experience would translate at this level.....and now, 4 years in, where does he go from here?

 

[johnrlansford]

No. It is possible to hire a coach that shows a lot of potential in a lower-tier conference, but has yet to succeed on Saban's level since that seems to be the only attribute you are concerned with,but neither Dooley nor Jones fit that bill.

Dooley by his own admission was flabbergasted by the fact that anyone, much less Mike Hamilton, would call and offer him another HC job , and Jones never won more than 5 conference games in his previous stops, nor did he ever outright win the conference. His resume, no matter how much you want to spin it as quality, has "middling coach" written all over it. Based off his days at Cincinnati, none of us should really be surprised about what we've seen over the last four seasons.

At Central Michigan his conference records were:
7-1 Won Conference Outright
6-2
8-0 Won Conference Outright

At Cincinnatihis conference records were:
2-5
5-2 Split conference Championship
5-2 Split conference Championship

So he won more than 5 games 3 times in 6 season as a head coach! You pick and choose the information that you want to include to make your argument!

So your arguement just went out the door! Why don't you get your facts before you come spitting lies!!!

Saban Only won more than 5 conference games 1 time in 6 years before being hired at LSU?

What exactly is your arguement? Most coaches learn from their mistakes, we will see if Butch has done that this year! Until then we don't know what we can expect this year for UT and Butch Jones

 

[bamawriter]

So he won more than 5 games 3 times in 6 season as a head coach! You pick and choose the information that you want to include to make your argument!

So your arguement just went out the door! Why don't you get your facts before you come spitting lies!!!

Saban Only won more than 5 conference games 1 time in 6 years before being hired at LSU?

No, Saban won 7 conference games during his one year at Toledo, and 6 in '99. If you're going to jump down someone's throat for being wrong, you should double check you own facts.

But I ask again, are we really going to pretend that following Brian Kelly at two different mid-majors is the same as inheriting George Perles' NCAA mess in the Big 10?

 

[jakez4ut]

No, Saban won 7 conference games during his one year at Toledo, and 6 in '99. If you're going to jump down someone's throat for being wrong, you should double check you own facts.

But I ask again, are we really going to pretend that following Brian Kelly at two different mid-majors is the same as inheriting George Perles' NCAA mess in the Big 10?

it's not, but it also doesn't mean one equals the other. mid major coaches have done well at big time programs and P5 coaches have flamed out at other P5 programs.

it's not all luck either, there's just no magic formula that says doing this = this result.

 

[BeardedVol]

At Central Michigan his conference records were:
7-1 Won Conference Outright
6-2
8-0 Won Conference Outright

At Cincinnatihis conference records were:
2-5
5-2 Split conference Championship
5-2 Split conference Championship

So he won more than 5 games 3 times in 6 season as a head coach! You pick and choose the information that you want to include to make your argument!

So your arguement just went out the door! Why don't you get your facts before you come spitting lies!!!

Saban Only won more than 5 conference games 1 time in 6 years before being hired at LSU?

What exactly is your arguement? Most coaches learn from their mistakes, we will see if Butch has done that this year! Until then we don't know what we can expect this year for UT and Butch Jones

Yeah, I accidentally typed "stops" instead of "stop"; forgive my lack of proofreading. The statement stills stands, in a bad Big East, CBJ was never able to outright win the conference, and never pulled off more than 5 conference wins in a season.

He has trended downward from his time at CMU, being less successful at Cincinnati than he was at CMU, and now less successful at UT than he was in Cincinnati. Each step up in conference has coincided with a worse conference record from his previous stop.

Feel free to keep frothing over that misplaced "s" though.

 

[johnrlansford]

Yeah, I accidentally typed "stops" instead of "stop"; forgive my lack of proofreading. The statement stills stands, in a bad Big East, CBJ was never able to outright win the conference, and never pulled off more than 5 conference wins in a season.

He has trended downward from his time at CMU, being less successful at Cincinnati than he was at CMU, and now less successful at UT than he was in Cincinnati. Each step up in conference has coincided with a worse conference record from his previous stop.

Feel free to keep frothing over that misplaced "s" though.

No i just love all of your negativity! You haven't said a positive thing about Tennessee Football in like what 6 months, maybe ever (not going to read your post history), the bottom line is even a negavol is eventually going to be happy about something, it doesn't have to be about Butch Jones it can be about players too. You must have a sad life to be spitting all this negativity!!!!

I can't wait for the 2017 season to be over with and you are still pissed because Butch Jones is still the coach even going 4-4 in the SEC! Have a great summer!

The bottom line is we wouldn't have hired Saban when LSU did because that would have been a massive step down from Fulmer even in his down years. There may be a great coach waiting out there for the opportunity but I don't see him yet! Do you?

 

[jakez4ut]

No i just love all of your negativity! You haven't said a positive thing about Tennessee Football in like what 6 months, maybe ever (not going to read your post history), the bottom line is even a negavol is eventually going to be happy about something, it doesn't have to be about Butch Jones it can be about players too. You must have a sad life to be spitting all this negativity!!!!

I can't wait for the 2017 season to be over with and you are still pissed because Butch Jones is still the coach even going 4-4 in the SEC! Have a great summer!

The bottom line is we wouldn't have hired Saban when LSU did because that would have been a massive step down from Fulmer even in his down years. There may be a great coach waiting out there for the opportunity but I don't see him yet! Do you?

no, we hired lane kiffin. :blink:

again, putting more of the ownership on the administration and boosters for not having a clear sense of direction and purpose defining how decisions should be made. especially if you're going to fire a guy like Fulmer that did what he did while he was here.

and this is still the biggest question that needs answered before this program ever gets back to being anything close to elite.

 

[05_never_again]

Regardless, almost none of the coaches that you've listed were fired or left because of Saban's continued success at Alabama. You might make the argument that struggling to compete with Alabama played into a firing or two, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Almost none? I would argue Saban had at least played hand in all of the big school coaches on the list getting fired, either directly (Chizik, probably Tuberville, and Miles) or indirectly by raising expectations across the conference (Fulmer, Muschamp, and especially Richt). Hell, a lack of success against Saban had nearly everything to do with Miles getting fired. There has always been little patience at schools with high expectations, but Saban has narrowed the window even further.

He undoubtedly has had a big hand in the level of attrition among SEC coaches over the years. Regardless of how much attrition has been caused by Saban, there is also no doubt he has been a huge beneficiary of it too. All of the big name coaches that have departed since he's been at Alabama have been replaced by guys who aren't as good or the jury is still out on.

 

[johnrlansford]

no, we hired lane kiffin. :blink:

again, putting more of the ownership on the administration and boosters for not having a clear sense of direction and purpose defining how decisions should be made. especially if you're going to fire a guy like Fulmer that did what he did while he was here.

and this is still the biggest question that needs answered before this program ever gets back to being anything close to elite.

I agree, Kiffin was a questionable hire but, he was an up and coming name. It si still crazy you fire a coach like fulmer for anybody who isn't remarkably better!!!

 

[jakez4ut]

I agree, Kiffin was a questionable hire but, he was an up and coming name. It si still crazy you fire a coach like fulmer for anybody who isn't remarkably better!!!

siap, but timing is a factor. had we pulled the trigger on Fulmer 2 years earlier, could we have lured Saban from the NFL? could we have gotten Urban Meyer or Les Miles?

woulda/coulda/shoulda, and not really relevant to our situation necessarily, but again, going back to direction and purpose for the program...if your guy is out there, and available potentially, you do what you gotta do, as was the case with LSU, Bama and FL at the time they made those moves. we tend to stand pat, and hope.

if currie has that guy in mind, say it's chip kelly for sake of argument, and we go 7-5 or 6-6....pull the trigger and go get your guy....if competitive relevance is the direction and purpose that are the driving factors in decision making.

point being...for LSU at the time, it was Nick Saban. Bama Nick Saban, FL Urban Meyer....us? Lane Kiffin???

 

[BeardedVol]

Almost none? I would argue Saban had at least played hand in all of the big school coaches on the list getting fired, either directly (Chizik, probably Tuberville, and Miles) or indirectly by raising expectations across the conference (Fulmer, Muschamp, and especially Richt). Hell, a lack of success against Saban had nearly everything to do with Miles getting fired. There has always been little patience at schools with high expectations, but Saban has narrowed the window even further.

He undoubtedly has had a big hand in the level of attrition among SEC coaches over the years. Regardless of how much attrition has been caused by Saban, there is also no doubt he has been a huge beneficiary of it too. All of the big name coaches that have departed since he's been at Alabama have been replaced by guys who aren't as good or the jury is still out on.

Chizik was fired because he went from 8-0 to 0-8 in three seasons; had nothing directly or indirectly to do with Saban per say, except that he lost to him. Gene's just not a very good HC.

Tubberville was at Auburn for a decade as was let go after 2008, which was Saban's second year at Alabama. Saban didn't cause Tommy to lose his job.

Miles, it probably played into it a bit considering Les had to beat Alabama to get the division, but going 3 seasons at 3rd or worse in the SECw, and not sniffing a division title in 5 is going to get most coaches fired at a school like LSU.

Fulmer's firing was not affected by Saban's success at Alabama; again he was fired before Saban made Alabama a powerhouse.

Muschamp was fired by Florida because he couldn't put together a MAC-level offense two seasons running; had nothing to do with Saban's success.

Richt had 15 years at GA and hadn't won the division in 3, and the AD knew Kirby was going to be snapped up if they didn't get him first. Saban's success had nothing to do with Mark Richt's inability stay dominate in the SECe.

I'll give you Miles, but the rest, and pretty much everyone else on that list were not victims of the unattainable expectation of matching Saban's success.

 

[BeardedVol]

No i just love all of your negativity! You haven't said a positive thing about Tennessee Football in like what 6 months, maybe ever (not going to read your post history), the bottom line is even a negavol is eventually going to be happy about something, it doesn't have to be about Butch Jones it can be about players too. You must have a sad life to be spitting all this negativity!!!!

I can't wait for the 2017 season to be over with and you are still pissed because Butch Jones is still the coach even going 4-4 in the SEC! Have a great summer!

The bottom line is we wouldn't have hired Saban when LSU did because that would have been a massive step down from Fulmer even in his down years. There may be a great coach waiting out there for the opportunity but I don't see him yet! Do you?

Statistical trends have no emotional connotation. You can fault me all you like for pointing them out, but in the end it still won't change that the numbers, or the downward trend.

 

[05_never_again]

Chizik was fired because he went from 8-0 to 0-8 in three seasons; had nothing directly or indirectly to do with Saban per say, except that he lost to him. Gene's just not a very good HC.

Agree Chizik isn't a good HC, but if Alabama sucked over the same timeframe, you think maybe they give him another year, especially considering he'd won a national title just 2 years prior? 0-8 is horrendous but having a recent national title usually helps you sustain even something that bad.

Tubberville was at Auburn for a decade as was let go after 2008, which was Saban's second year at Alabama. Saban didn't cause Tommy to lose his job.

You don't think Saban going 8-0 in conference play, already starting to badly out-recruit Tuberville (Alabama had the 3rd ranked class that year, Auburn 24th), and losing by 36 to Alabama that year sped up the timetable on moving Tommy out? Remember this is Auburn we are talking about.

Miles, it probably played into it a bit considering Les had to beat Alabama to get the division, but going 3 seasons at 3rd or worse in the SECw, and not sniffing a division title in 5 is going to get most coaches fired at a school like LSU.

A bit? Saban had nearly everything to do with Miles' firing. The reason they didn't sniff division titles in 5 years is because they almost always lost to Saban, with sometimes their seasons totally unraveling after that. The one time Miles did beat Saban, they incredibly had to play him again in the title game and got embarrassed. Saban would routinely pick off a couple highly-touted players from Louisiana and Miles couldn't consistently return the favor by picking off a guy Saban wanted. LSU fans have a massive inferiority complex with Saban and Alabama, even more than Auburn people do. Deep down they think he should still be their coach.

Fulmer's firing was not affected by Saban's success at Alabama; again he was fired before Saban made Alabama a powerhouse.

When Fulmer was fired in '08, it was obvious Saban was in the process of turning them around. Not obvious he'd win 4 national titles there, but obvious he was turning them into a relevant program again. Also remember Saban dump trucked Tennessee that year in Knoxville and the year before in T'town with a very mediocre team. Fulmer was fired because he was bad against our other rivals too, but to say he wasn't affected by Saban's success at Alabama I think is incorrect.

Muschamp was fired by Florida because he couldn't put together a MAC-level offense two seasons running; had nothing to do with Saban's success.

This is my weakest case. Saban has raised expectations everywhere, but Muschamp still gets fired even if the coach at Alabama was an oak tree.

Richt had 15 years at GA and hadn't won the division in 3, and the AD knew Kirby was going to be snapped up if they didn't get him first. Saban's success had nothing to do with Mark Richt's inability stay dominate in the SECe.

You almost said it yourself; Georgia fired a very successful (but not championship-winning) head coach because a guy whose main claim to fame is that he was Saban's DC was available. Smart is a Georgia alum too, but if he was the DC at a mediocre school does Georgia still offer him the job? I know Georgia fans who said incessantly for years that their program could/should be like Alabama but that they just don't have a coach who is cut out for it. Saban didn't directly prevent them from winning SEC East titles but Richt fell victim to the expectations that Saban helps create for other fanbases, in addition to his own.

 

[BeardedVol]

Agree Chizik isn't a good HC, but if Alabama sucked over the same timeframe, you think maybe they give him another year, especially considering he'd won a national title just 2 years prior? 0-8 is horrendous but having a recent national title usually helps you sustain even something that bad.



You don't think Saban going 8-0 in conference play, already starting to badly out-recruit Tuberville (Alabama had the 3rd ranked class that year, Auburn 24th), and losing by 36 to Alabama that year sped up the timetable on moving Tommy out? Remember this is Auburn we are talking about.



A bit? Saban had nearly everything to do with Miles' firing. The reason they didn't sniff division titles in 5 years is because they almost always lost to Saban, with sometimes their seasons totally unraveling after that. The one time Miles did beat Saban, they incredibly had to play him again in the title game and got embarrassed. Saban would routinely pick off a couple highly-touted players from Louisiana and Miles couldn't consistently return the favor by picking off a guy Saban wanted. LSU fans have a massive inferiority complex with Saban and Alabama, even more than Auburn people do. Deep down they think he should still be their coach.



When Fulmer was fired in '08, it was obvious Saban was in the process of turning them around. Not obvious he'd win 4 national titles there, but obvious he was turning them into a relevant program again. Also remember Saban dump trucked Tennessee that year in Knoxville and the year before in T'town with a very mediocre team. Fulmer was fired because he was bad against our other rivals too, but to say he wasn't affected by Saban's success at Alabama I think is incorrect.



This is my weakest case. Saban has raised expectations everywhere, but Muschamp still gets fired even if the coach at Alabama was an oak tree.



You almost said it yourself; Georgia fired a very successful (but not championship-winning) head coach because a guy whose main claim to fame is that he was Saban's DC was available. Smart is a Georgia alum too, but if he was the DC at a mediocre school does Georgia still offer him the job? I know Georgia fans who said incessantly for years that their program could/should be like Alabama but that they just don't have a coach who is cut out for it. Saban didn't directly prevent them from winning SEC East titles but Richt fell victim to the expectations that Saban helps create for other fanbases, in addition to his own.

Chizik was going to get fired regardless of what Saban did at Alabama in that time period. You just don't survive that sort of flop like Auburn's 2012 season.

Tubberville was past his prime, and the Auburn AD knew it. I don't think anyone in 2008 thought that that Saban was going to go on the current streak. Tubberville just happened to be at the end of a decade at Auburn where the last three seasons he was declining and ended up 2-6 in the SECw in 2008; even losing to a terrible Vanderbilt. They cut bait because it was time to do so.

I'm sure Miles being let go was on part on his inability to beat Saban, but he wasn't outright getting killed. Most of LSU's losses to Saban's Alabama where close, with several by less than a touch down. The real problem came when he started to lose to teams besides Alabama.

Saban hadn't had his string of success to contribute to Fulmer's demise; that's all on Fulmer's lack of ability to replace Cutcliffe with a competent OC, and his laziness on the recruiting trail.

Richt had 15 years at Georgia, and several of those the East was in shambles, and he still couldn't win the division consistently. IMHO I think losing to Butch Jones in 2015 played more into Richt's firing than Saban's unholy success.