Ukraine Protests

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#2,151
#2,151
volprof said:
I guess I should clarify that I distinguish between nationalism and patriotism. Also, yes, nationalism can be rational in the sense that it allows for greater strength in numbers, assessing one's state of affairs, determining what will work best for their nation (or even themselves in some cases) vis a vis the international community, and acting upon this determination. In that sense, yes, nationalism is rational and even moral, I suppose. So, I overstated things a bit in my earlier post.

Nonetheless, nationalism can be incredibly irrational. And, indeed, I would argue it (along with ethnocentrism as a smaller-scale version) has contributed to the majority of the world's wars since at least the mid-1800s. I think we'd all be better off with a little less nationalism and a little more patriotism.
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Perhaps, but without nationalism, we wouldn't have won WWII, landed on the moon, created the Bill of Rights (even as it's shredded these days) or any number of things that will stand for all time as our greatest accomplishments.

Nationalism can be a rapier that selects the parts it hits or the broadsword that hacks away randomly. It all depends on the application.
 
#2,154
#2,154
Grand Vol said:
You pretty much described the entire First World War.
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True, but the Russians really took the cake. They probably could've won the war early with any levek of competence.

Of course,I read an article comparing Russia/USSR t Lennie Small militarily, which I'm inclined to agree with.
 
#2,155
#2,155
Grand Vol said:
Perhaps, but without nationalism, we wouldn't have won WWII, landed on the moon, created the Bill of Rights (even as it's shredded these days) or any number of things that will stand for all time as our greatest accomplishments.

Nationalism can be a rapier that selects the parts it hits or the broadsword that hacks away randomly. It all depends on the application.
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Your WWII example is technically accurate, but it was German and Japanese nationalism that created the mess in the first place. I'm not quite sure how the Bill of Rights relates to nationalism, unless you're saying that nationalism created the American republic.

But yes, it's often dependent on context and application. I just too often see nationalism clouding people's regards of an international community. This is opposed to patriotism, which I see as pride in one's country, but not an unconditional pride that allows for the erasure of the needs of other nations.
 
#2,157
#2,157
volprof said:
Looked closer at your article. Very revealing, although a bit dated. I highly doubt any of this has changed though, which just proves to me further that Putin "looks" like the "most successful" actually defective leader in the world at the moment. Murder will out eventually though. Just needs some time.
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The demographics have ticked up a bit recently. Part of it is the influx of Muslims.

This guy discusses it on Book TV. Video link on the right.

International Affairs - "Implosion: The End of Russia and What It Means for America" - Book TV
 
#2,158
#2,158
#2,159
#2,159
volprof said:
Your WWII example is technically accurate, but it was German and Japanese nationalism that created the mess in the first place.
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You are correct, but the stronger of the national wills that prevailed. Americans had the stronger national will to win and win decisively.

volprof said:
I'm not quite sure how the Bill of Rights relates to nationalism, unless you're saying that nationalism created the American republic.
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It was nationalism, a very infant form of nationalism, that created our nation. We created our own identity in that document and broke away from the British to form our own destiny as a sovereign nation. And the idealistic notions of "American" created the greatest nation on this planet.

volprof said:
But yes, it's often dependent on context and application. I just too often see nationalism clouding people's regards of an international community. This is opposed to patriotism, which I see as pride in one's country, but not an unconditional pride that allows for the erasure of the needs of other nations.
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Patriotism and nationalism are linked. And again, it's the application of said -ism that defines the goal. People were patriotic in their devotion to land a man on the moon because of nationalistic goals.
 
#2,160
#2,160
Also seeing where a member of a "Crimean Self-Defense" unit was also shot and killed in the raid.
 
#2,162
#2,162
volprof said:
Must be our version of Igor Panarin. I'll have to listen later, when I have more time. Do you find him more rational than Panarin?
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Not familiar with Panarin. I don't even know about Berman, beyond that he had an interesting description of the demographic changes in Russia.

Grand Vol said:
It was nationalism, a very infant form of nationalism, that created our nation.
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wut
 
#2,163
#2,163
Velo Vol said:
Not familiar with Panarin. I don't even know about Berman, beyond that he had an interesting description of the demographic changes in Russia.



wut
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He's a quack pan-Eurasianist, whose views actually have some traction in Russia.

Igor Panarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I recall once reading a Western news media article that actually interviewed him about his theories. The journalist recounted that Panarin's office in Moscow (I think) has a big map of Alaska. The reporter described Panarin as looking at the map plaintively but with hope. Take that for what it's worth.
 
#2,164
#2,164
17:54:

Ukrainian soldiers are "allowed to use arms" after suffering their first casualty in Crimea since Russian and pro-Kremlin troops seized the peninsula nearly three weeks ago, Ukraine's defence ministry has said. It added that such a move was necessary "for their self-defence and protection of their lives".
 
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#2,165
#2,165
So two Ukrainian officers shot; one dead, another wounded. Another BBC report says base commander has been kidnapped.
 
#2,166
#2,166
Now the Ukrainian MOD has given permission for troops to use force this could quickly spiral out of control.
 
#2,168
#2,168
Burhead said:
Now the Ukrainian MOD has given permission for troops to use force this could quickly spiral out of control.
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We'll just have to wait and see how the Ukrainians who are held up in these bases respond. For instance, do they start shooting at the Russians outside or, if Russian forces attempt to overtake them again, how committed will they be to a firefight again?

You had better bet, however, that Putin will use any excuse to go all out in Crimea at least.
 
#2,169
#2,169
volprof said:
We'll just have to wait and see how the Ukrainians who are held up in these bases respond. For instance, do they start shooting at the Russians outside or, if Russian forces attempt to overtake them again, how committed will they be to a firefight again?

You had better bet, however, that Putin will use any excuse to go all out in Crimea at least.
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What concerns me is they have been holed up in the bases for what? Three weeks now, their patience and ability to restrain has got to be extremely low by this point.
 
#2,174
#2,174
Burhead said:
Not over Crimea but when Putin gets extra greedy and tries for the southern and eastern portions of the country. That's when I expect armed clashes to start.
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I'd say that is a foregone conclusion they will eventually try for the eastern portions of the Ukraine.
 
#2,175
#2,175
Russian thugs

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/7Obuy2QEQBE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

@elizapalmer 1h

#Crimea At base nr Sebastopol Fiolint 3009. Ukrainian soldiers surrounded. Armed men outside warn they will attack. Gunmen ordered us away.
 
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