Ukraine Protests

[SergeantVol]

If you right wingers don't like" left wing" policies then fore go Social Security and Medicare, the repubs fought tooth and nail to stop their passage. :question:

Does this mean we get all the money we paid into back? I could make a lot more through private investment.

 

[SergeantVol]

While on skis no less lol

I can barely stand up in the snow, much less shooting a Mosin-Nagant while on a pair of neck breakers.

Simo haya aka the white death

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Does this mean we get all the money we paid into back? I could make a lot more through private investment.

Heck, at this point, they can have what I've already put in if they allow me to not have to put a dime more in for the next 20 years or so.

 

[volinbham]

If you right wingers don't like" left wing" policies then fore go Social Security and Medicare, the repubs fought tooth and nail to stop their passage. :question:

right after people like Michael Moore return all the riches they've made through capitalism and those select liberals quit working for the evil corporations they routinely trash; surrendering their benefits and retirement benefits...

 

[volinbham]

Heck, at this point, they can have what I've already put in if they allow me to not have to put a dime more in for the next 20 years or so.

6.2% of your annual income invested as you see fit? I'm betting you could outperform the SS benefits you may receive.

 

[volinbham]

Hypothetical: If a strong majority (70+%) of Crimea voted legitimately to become part of Russia rather than the Ukraine (even though such a vote is illegal) what should our position be? Should we say the wishes of the populace don't matter since those wishes were not expressed within the proper legal framework?

 

[Danl]

Hypothetical: If a strong majority (70+%) of Crimea voted legitimately to become part of Russia rather than the Ukraine (even though such a vote is illegal) what should our position be? Should we say the wishes of the populace don't matter since those wishes were not expressed within the proper legal framework?

Good question. Is it analogous to having 70% of the county that you live in voting to become part of a bordering state (assuming your county borders another state)?

 

[Grand Vol]

Hypothetical: If a strong majority (70+%) of Crimea voted legitimately to become part of Russia rather than the Ukraine (even though such a vote is illegal) what should our position be? Should we say the wishes of the populace don't matter since those wishes were not expressed within the proper legal framework?

Under an internationally supervised and monitored election that has no undue influence, I'd say we have to support the decision. Remember, historically the Crimea was always part of Russia and only in recent memory has been "assigned" to the Ukraine.

Overall, it's up to the people of the Crimea to determine their destiny. And if the majority (your 70% figure) believe that falls with Russia, so be it.

 

[Velo Vol]

The listed countries were admitted to NATO on the chance that a resurgent Russia ever had thoughts of expanding once again. Little foresight going on there huh?

Imagine waking up one crazy morning to discover there were Russian tanks in Tallinn. My first reaction would be: where the fark is Tallinn? Then, why are we going to war over Estonia?

These treaties are what turned violence in SE Europe into WWI.

And for what? To poke Russia in the eye?

The rumor is that Gorbachev agreed to allow German unification on the condition that NATO didn't creep any farther eastward.

We're way beyond that.

 

[Burhead]

The rumor is that Gorbachev agreed to allow German unification on the condition that NATO didn't creep any farther eastward.

We're way beyond that.

History is written by the victors.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

 

[Grand Vol]

Imagine waking up one crazy morning to discover there were Russian tanks in Tallinn. My first reaction would be: where the fark is Tallinn? Then, why are we going to war over Estonia?

These treaties are what turned violence in SE Europe into WWI.

And for what? To poke Russia in the eye?

The rumor is that Gorbachev agreed to allow German unification on the condition that NATO didn't creep any farther eastward.

We're way beyond that.

Sorry that your education didn't get into geography lol

You've offered some decent insights into this thread and kept up with the info pretty good. But you are still are missing the big point here. Putin is acting like it's the height of the Cold War. And that's again something that this administration cannot wrap their head around. The rhetoric shows in practically everything they are doing or rather the lack of action. It took a whole week to get something going. A week? Really?

But either way, historically Russia/Soviet Union has attempted to expand either their empire or their geopolitical influence. And not always in a peaceful manner. So admitting the former Eastern European countries and former Soviet republics into NATO helps protect them from that coercion that we are seeing now. Call it an archaic view, but the simple fact that we are seeing Russia attempting to expand shows exemplary foresight on someone's part. Or else Russia wouldn't stop with the Crimea. The Baltics would be swallowed up, Ukraine, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, et al would end up falling right back into the Russian sphere and de facto surrogates to the whims of Russia and Putin. And the rest of Europe sits this one out since Russia still has a stranglehold on their gas and oil resources.

This is history being made right now. And the future of Europe just might depend on the outcome of this crisis. Maybe we haven't fought the last war in Europe yet. Maybe we have and they will seek peace through other means. Maybe this will spin into another Cold War. Maybe Russia backs off entirely and develops an non-interventionist stance. There are so many tangents that can and will spin off this it's insane.

Overall point? I completely agree with allowing the nations into NATO that were admitted after the fall of the Soviet Union. I know many people here don't agree with being the world's policeman. But the point is we are a strong country overall. Our political leaders don't always portray that on the world stage, but the simple fact is we are the big kid on the block. And sometimes we have to stand up for the little guy, Estonia in your example, because they can't stand up for themselves. Or I'd actually refer to it as standing with our friends. When you have a monster like Russia sitting just over the fence, it does tend to make one nervous and looking for other friends that have no ambitions of a land grab. Those former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact nations know what it was like living under the threat of Russia and they sought out friends to help in times of crisis. And this is something we should be thankful for since they also have helped us when we needed it.

Call me a relic of the Cold War in my geopolitical thinking, but the simple facts remains; as long as there are people that cannot defend themselves out in this world, there has to be someone to stand up to the bullies and help protect them.

 

[Burhead]

Sorry that your education didn't get into geography lol

You've offered some decent insights into this thread and kept up with the info pretty good. But you are still are missing the big point here. Putin is acting like it's the height of the Cold War. And that's again something that this administration cannot wrap their head around. The rhetoric shows in practically everything they are doing or rather the lack of action. It took a whole week to get something going. A week? Really?

But either way, historically Russia/Soviet Union has attempted to expand either their empire or their geopolitical influence. And not always in a peaceful manner. So admitting the former Eastern European countries and former Soviet republics into NATO helps protect them from that coercion that we are seeing now. Call it an archaic view, but the simple fact that we are seeing Russia attempting to expand shows exemplary foresight on someone's part. Or else Russia wouldn't stop with the Crimea. The Baltics would be swallowed up, Ukraine, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, et al would end up falling right back into the Russian sphere and de facto surrogates to the whims of Russia and Putin. And the rest of Europe sits this one out since Russia still has a stranglehold on their gas and oil resources.

This is history being made right now. And the future of Europe just might depend on the outcome of this crisis. Maybe we haven't fought the last war in Europe yet. Maybe we have and they will seek peace through other means. Maybe this will spin into another Cold War. Maybe Russia backs off entirely and develops an non-interventionist stance. There are so many tangents that can and will spin off this it's insane.

Overall point? I completely agree with allowing the nations into NATO that were admitted after the fall of the Soviet Union. I know many people here don't agree with being the world's policeman. But the point is we are a strong country overall. Our political leaders don't always portray that on the world stage, but the simple fact is we are the big kid on the block. And sometimes we have to stand up for the little guy, Estonia in your example, because they can't stand up for themselves. Or I'd actually refer to it as standing with our friends. When you have a monster like Russia sitting just over the fence, it does tend to make one nervous and looking for other friends that have no ambitions of a land grab. Those former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact nations know what it was like living under the threat of Russia and they sought out friends to help in times of crisis. And this is something we should be thankful for since they also have helped us when we needed it.

Call me a relic of the Cold War in my geopolitical thinking, but the simple facts remains; as long as there are people that cannot defend themselves out in this world, there has to be someone to stand up to the bullies and help protect them.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Cold War mentality would be much more preferred than today's post-Cold War world. At least during the Cold War you knew who your enemies were, what their capabilities were, where most of their forces were located, etc. In the post Soviet collapse we've seen a rise in non-nation state threats and those are much more harder to find and defeat. At least with a true nation-state enemy you have some idea of what to expect. Again I was born after the Wall came down so I never lived through it but seems like a slightly easier time to prepare foreign policy/defense related items against than the post Soviet world.

 

[volinbham]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Cold War mentality would be much more preferred than today's post-Cold War world. At least during the Cold War you knew who your enemies were, what their capabilities were, where most of their forces were located, etc. In the post Soviet collapse we've seen a rise in non-nation state threats and those are much more harder to find and defeat. At least with a true nation-state enemy you have some idea of what to expect. Again I was born after the Wall came down so I never lived through it but seems like a slightly easier time to prepare foreign policy/defense related items against than the post Soviet world.

Part of why the world liked the US is that we were the better alternative to the USSR. When it was just us then people started to see us as overbearing and meddling where we shouldn't be.

I mentioned hegemonic stability theory earlier but there is a school of thought that some combination of superpowers may actually keep things stable vs a single hegemony or none.

 

[Grand Vol]

Part of why the world liked the US is that we were the better alternative to the USSR. When it was just us then people started to see us as overbearing and meddling where we shouldn't be.

I mentioned hegemonic stability theory earlier but there is a school of thought that some combination of superpowers may actually keep things stable vs a single hegemony or none.

I remember reading in a fiction novel, don't recall which one specifically, that when dealing with the US you got Exxon and McDonalds. When dealing with the Soviets you got troops. An interesting analogy and certainly not one without merit.

 

[volprof]

Meanwhile, all of us who are secure about our wiener size suffer due to the insecurities of those who aren't. Just another day of phallic diplomacy.

I'll give Freud credit: as big a knucklehead as he was, he nailed it right on the head, so to speak.

 

[Velo Vol]

Putin is acting like it's the height of the Cold War.

I know, but it's not. I wonder how much even the Russian public follows him on this. Sure, the Russian nationalism sells, but the fear of the west? To borrow a phrase, every day the world becomes more flatter.

I completely agree with allowing the nations into NATO that were admitted after the fall of the Soviet Union.

It expanded our risks and liabilities with no corresponding gain in assets.

Call me a relic of the Cold War in my geopolitical thinking, but the simple facts remains; as long as there are people that cannot defend themselves out in this world, there has to be someone to stand up to the bullies and help protect them.

Great. Why limit this to Eastern Europe? With this logic, shouldn't we be protecting nations in Africa from fighters who are crossing borders?

 

[Velo Vol]

I mentioned hegemonic stability theory earlier but there is a school of thought that some combination of superpowers may actually keep things stable vs a single hegemony or none.

We're closer to having none. The American public doesn't have the money or appetite to be the world's policeman today.

Europe doesn't want sanctions which may threaten its economy, even for an armed dispute on its own border.

China prefers not to meddle with this kind of thing at all.

 

[Grand Vol]

I know, but it's not. I wonder how much even the Russian public follows him on this. Sure, the Russian nationalism sells, but the fear of the west? To borrow a phrase, every day the world becomes more flatter.

There is a historical reasoning there. Russia has been invaded quite often over history so it's not an unknown situation to use the "other barbarians" at the gate to whip up Russia.

And while the Cold War may be over, everyone has to agree it's over before that takes effect, no?

It expanded our risks and liabilities with no corresponding gain in assets.

Opened new economic markets to us as well as allowing our defense industries a chance for new markets as well. I wouldn't say it was entirely without a gain in assets.

Great. Why limit this to Eastern Europe? With this logic, shouldn't we be protecting nations in Africa from fighters who are crossing borders?

Because historically we have a vested interest in Europe having fought major wars there twice in 30 years vis a vie Africa. Same can be said of Korea, Japan and some nations in Southeast Asia. But Europe specifically saw the rise of two great military empires in the wakes of the World Wars and I believe our intervention in the aftermath of the second averted a third at the moment.

But don't be mistaken, we've done plenty of deployments in Africa as well albeit on a greatly reduced scale. The proxy wars of the Cold War were often fought in Central and South America, Southeast Asia and Africa in which we played a significant part.

 

[Grand Vol]

Meanwhile, all of us who are secure about our wiener size suffer due to the insecurities of those who aren't. Just another day of phallic diplomacy.

I'll give Freud credit: as big a knucklehead as he was, he nailed it right on the head, so to speak.

Perhaps we can stick our heads in the sand and ignore the realities of the world. Because reality is this is still a diplomatic path that happens each and ever day. Difference is this time is it happens to be a nation with a significant military presence and is historically a world power.

So let's stick our head in the sand and revoke our defense treaties around the world. Let's allow Russia to bully Europe into capitulation. Let's allow North Korea to go after the South. Let's allow China to start taking islands in the South China Sea and bully Japan, Korea(s), the Philippines and SW Asia. We'll sit comfortably over in our little part of the world and let the rest of the world rip themselves apart.

And in the meantime our own economy crumbles because we depend greatly on imports and our own industry has a hard time keeping up because of petty politics at home. So let's keep our wangs in our pants and allow the rest of the world to do as they please.

 

[Velo Vol]

Hypothetical: If a strong majority (70+%) of Crimea voted legitimately to become part of Russia rather than the Ukraine (even though such a vote is illegal) what should our position be? Should we say the wishes of the populace don't matter since those wishes were not expressed within the proper legal framework?

This is a good question. It doesn't appear any March referendum will have much international credibility, nor should it, given the haphazard nature it's being done, with Russian troops roaming around.

But what if six months from now they managed a fair and free vote? How much stock do we put in Ukraine's territorial integrity? Is Crimea indispensable to the Ukrainian state? Would a free Crimea be better for long-term regional stability?

I can't say.

One thing that's been pointed out is that geographically, the only land connection Crimea has is through Ukraine. So it would be very difficult for it to carry on independently (or even part of Russia) without Kyiv's cooperation.

 

[82_VOL_83]

That's rich coming from you , how much military experience is under your belt?

He is free to answer this one since his boy got rid of don't ask don't tell.

 

[Velo Vol]

TIL: Due to the Montreux Convention, warships of countries which do not border the Black Sea can only remain there for 21 days.

 

[KentheOrange]

You have a warped perception of history.

Now that you have a clue on what to search for, do a little research and get back to me.

 

[Burhead]

@shustry 1m

BREAKING: Crimea TV reporting that Russians have begun storming Ukraine air-force base on the peninsula, ramming the gates with a truck