Ukraine Protests

[LouderVol]

They don't have to let their manufacturing go overseas like we did. It was a conscious decision to open cheap labor markets when we signed all the free trade agreements.

then why do all their goods suddenly get so expensive for us? if they are keeping the same base and just adding to it?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

How do you think the US excelled when it was a manufacturing economy? We bought the stuff we made. Someone said earlier that China's economy was going to blow up in their face. The better analysis is they're all about to blow up in all our faces. World debt levels are just that staggering.

The question is would you rather be a creditor nation with a manufacturing economy, or in debt equal to your GDP and a financial services based economy?

Sad that so many Americans don't know history or understand basic economics.

 

[red butler]

Again, what is going to happen to all those American companies in China? Do they suddenly become Chinese companies?

Most of the companies that own plants in china are multinational global companies. They aren't exactly patriotic or they wouldn't exploit every rule to avoid taxes. Just like they look for cheap labor, they will market their goods to people that can afford them... Wherever they are.

 

[LouderVol]

How do you think the US excelled when it was a manufacturing economy? We bought the stuff we made. Someone said earlier that China's economy was going to blow up in their face. The better analysis is they're all about to blow up in all our faces. World debt levels are just that staggering.

The question is would you rather be a creditor nation with a manufacturing economy, or in debt equal to your GDP and a financial services based economy?

i thought the whole premise was they were moving to the middle class, which distinctly suggests a move away from manufacturing. Middle class and communism don't go well together.

China works as long as it has a market to grow into, which is why you see them crawling into bed with EVERYONE. if you think American post WWII imperialism was bad just wait for China to do the same. difference is China is not a self supportive nation when it comes to resources like the US can be, and is 3 times the size.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

then why do all their goods suddenly get so expensive for us? if they are keeping the same base and just adding to it?

Their currency will rise in value while our currency, which depends on all oil sales being denominated and settled in dollars, will loose value once oil sales are open to other currencies. Once that happens, there will be no need for countries to hold dollars in their foreign reserves and all of those dollars will have to find their way back home to the US. At that point, no one will want to trade worthless dollars for real goods and services.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Sad that so many Americans don't know history or understand basic economics.

Yes, Soviet history and fascism as well.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

i thought the whole premise was they were moving to the middle class, which distinctly suggests a move away from manufacturing. Middle class and communism don't go well together.

China works as long as it has a market to grow into, which is why you see them crawling into bed with EVERYONE. if you think American post WWII imperialism was bad just wait for China to do the same. difference is China is not a self supportive nation when it comes to resources like the US can be, and is 3 times the size.

No, their Chinese economy will move to be less of an exporter and more of an importer (for raw goods and energy mainly) to help satisfy the Chinese middle class demand.

And by the way, China is not your grandaddy's communist country as far as fiscal policy goes (social policy is a different story). They are far more fiscally conservative and have better long range planning there than any of the people running things here in the US.

 

[LouderVol]

Most of the companies that own plants in china are multinational global companies. They aren't exactly patriotic or they wouldn't exploit every rule to avoid taxes. Just like they look for cheap labor, they will market their goods to people that can afford them... Wherever they are.

doesn't explain how it hurts the US, they are already not making stuff over here, we have already lost the jobs.

 

[red butler]

then why do all their goods suddenly get so expensive for us? if they are keeping the same base and just adding to it?

Because the value of the currency they're getting paid in has increased. It will take more dollars to pay for their labor.

 

[LouderVol]

Their currency will rise in value while our currency, which depends on all oil sales being denominated and settled in dollars, will loose value once oil sales are open to other currencies. Once that happens, there will be no need for countries to hold dollars in their foreign reserves and all of those dollars will have to find their way back home to the US. At that point, no one will want to trade worthless dollars for real goods and services.

VN is the worst with this. You LOSE money you LOOSEN your belt.

and when the yuan becomes so valuable that drives up the cost of their goods to the rest of the world as well. meaning less countries, not just the US, will not want to shop there. meaning those companies get up and move again. which causes China to lose the manufacturing base just like the US did.

and since when are we globally going back to a barter system? currency, whether gold back, or 1s & 0s backed will still be the way of the game. and i am willing to bet the dollar does just even without a cornered market on oil trade, which i don't think we have had in decades/the oil crisis in 1970. and besides if it isn't the dollar it is someone else's and all you are doing is trading names.

 

[volprof]

why is it a recurring theme w/ Ras that nations are suddenly going to go independent and remove themselves from the global economy? how is the world filled with business deals in Yen, Rubbles, Dollars, Pounds, Reichmarks, Franks etc all, going to be any better? what are the value of those media to one another? There is always a rudimentary 'base' the world economy has to judge itself on. And right now the US GDP is head and shoulders above everyone else. Until something happens to the US the US dollar is going to be the basis for trade. The only difference in the 'world free from the US petrodollar' scheme that you keep bringing up is that all trade is going to take one more step than it did before. Instead of now where you take your money convert to US dollar and buy the goods you will convert your money to dollars then dollars to whatever then buy your goods. if it suddenly became Gold as the standard congrats everyone gets an ever decreasing share of a precious metal that 99.999% of people would never have a use for. we would spark more Gold rushes and you get to see countries that had huge stockpiles of Gold but very little in overall economy suddenly go the way of Spain in the 18th century.

Right now, the world depends upon the US Navy for its good to flow. Quite literally. If anybody wants to jack us out of the system we created, than we can just tell them to go and defend their own trade interests. China, as I recall, is surrounded by a whole host of adverse nations on its coast. Watching the tensions run amok would be interesting to say the least.

 

[LouderVol]

Because the value of the currency they're getting paid in has increased. It will take more dollars to pay for their labor.

and when that happens the companies will pack up and move somewhere else. They (the companies) left the US when that happened, why wouldn't it happen to China when it happens to them?

 

[LouderVol]

Right now, the world depends upon the US Navy for its good to flow. Quite literally. If anybody wants to jack us out of the system we created, than we can just tell them to go and defend their own trade interests. China, as I recall, is surrounded by a whole host of adverse nations on its coast. Watching the tensions run amok would be interesting to say the least.

yup the world descends back into chaos. having A super power is good for the world's stability.

 

[red butler]

doesn't explain how it hurts the US, they are already not making stuff over here, we have already lost the jobs.

It hurts because the toaster you buy at wal mart will accurately reflect the cost of the labor to make it. Meaning life in the US would get more expensive. If it happens over a long period of time, markets will adjust and it won't be terrible. In fact, jobs may return to the US. But if the Swiss depeg is any indication, the transition will not occur slowly.

 

[LouderVol]

It hurts because the toaster you buy at wal mart will accurately reflect the cost of the labor to make it. Meaning life in the US would get more expensive. If it happens over a long period of time, markets will adjust and it won't be terrible. In fact, jobs may return to the US. But if the Swiss depeg is any indication, the transition will not occur slowly.

Because the value of the currency they're getting paid in has increased. It will take more dollars to pay for their labor.

and when that happens the companies will pack up and move somewhere else. They (the companies) left the US when that happened, why wouldn't it happen to China when it happens to them?

seems like i have answered this. why in your situation are the companies magically staying in China after costs have gone up?

 

[volprof]

yup the world descends back into chaos. having A super power is good for the world's stability.

Having a halfway decent superpower like the US looking over things is good for the world's stability and economy. Not saying it's perfect, but what ever is?

The anti-American folks, I don't think they quite realize what they're asking for when they want the order to change. The pre-American system was a world of a multitude of isolated economic interests known as nation-states that thought it a good idea to go to war with one another every decade because of this fact.

 

[red butler]

seems like i have answered this. why in your situation are the companies magically staying in China after costs have gone up?

They may, but it won't happen overnight, it takes decades. How long did it take in the US, about 100 years?

First you have to find a cheap labor market. Then you have to make sure the country is secure enough to invest. Then education has to be improved to a minimum standard.

 

[volprof]

I've read several analysts that think China is somewhat of a hollow shell. It manipulates its currency and various index numbers all the time.

 

[LouderVol]

Having a halfway decent superpower like the US looking over things is good for the world's stability and economy. Not saying it's perfect, but what ever is?

The anti-American folks, I don't think they quite realize what they're asking for when they want the order to change. The pre-American system was a world of a multitude of isolated economic interests known as nation-states that thought it a good idea to go to war with one another every decade because of this fact.

yeah we are going back to the time of major wars between countries or trading the US for another super power, and the two choices to replace the US right now are Russia and China. the EU might have been a possibility at one point but not now with the direction they have chosen.

 

[LouderVol]

They may, but it won't happen overnight, it takes decades. How long did it take in the US, about 100 years?

First you have to find a cheap labor market. Then you have to make sure the country is secure enough to invest. Then education has to be improved to a minimum standard.

really? we only get cheap stuff from China? Mexico, Vietnam (i am actually impressed with what they are doing) Indonesia, India (they're the big one)

i would say it took WAY less than 100 years in the US. at best it was from post WWII to Vietnam before we were out of the wide scale manufacturing.

 

[LouderVol]

I've read several analysts that think China is somewhat of a hollow shell. It manipulates its currency and various index numbers all the time.

like i said earlier, as long as they keep growing they are outrunning their problems. Think of our 2007/2008 Bubble but on the scale of China where the economic system is much more integrated into social policies (communism).

 

[CSpindizzy]

The textile industry basically vacated the US during the 90's in a relatively quick fashion. Didn't take 100 years for that. Electronics, auto industry, etc. moved relatively quickly. There are quite a few labor markets out there. China is great just based on stability and a massive labor force. Businesses may have to scatter but I really do not see China just chasing off American corporations as well as the American market.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

VN is the worst with this. You LOSE money you LOOSEN your belt.

and when the yuan becomes so valuable that drives up the cost of their goods to the rest of the world as well. meaning less countries, not just the US, will not want to shop there. meaning those companies get up and move again. which causes China to lose the manufacturing base just like the US did.

and since when are we globally going back to a barter system? currency, whether gold back, or 1s & 0s backed will still be the way of the game. and i am willing to bet the dollar does just even without a cornered market on oil trade, which i don't think we have had in decades/the oil crisis in 1970. and besides if it isn't the dollar it is someone else's and all you are doing is trading names.

Correct... no one is arguing that point.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

seems like i have answered this. why in your situation are the companies magically staying in China after costs have gone up?

Domestically, costs will be close to level. Meaning, the good will be manufactured in China and sold in China. There is no currency advantage in regards to domestically made and sold products. The currency implications come once you start talking about markets outside of China.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I have yet to see this story play out this week. Sputnik trying to drum up news?

US to Deploy Six National Guard Companies to Ukraine This Week / Sputnik International