Ukraine Protests

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#9,076
#9,076
Velo Vol said:
If Moscow was hosting 2015 Summer Olympic Games, would you favor another American boycott?
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It will be interesting to see how the US handles the Russian World Cup in a few years.

I'm not quite sure how federated soccer works though. I'm not certain whether govt. control is as strong over soccer as Olympic teams.

Can you imagine the abuse the US soccer team is going to take in Russia, especially if this nonsense in Ukraine is still going on then or even worse. I bet more than half the stadium will always be Russians pulling against the American team. Plus American fans will probably constantly be abused by local populations. I wouldn't go.
 
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#9,077
#9,077
volprof said:
It will be interesting to see how the US handles the Russian World Cup in a few years.

I'm not quite sure how federated soccer works though. I'm not certain whether govt. control is as strong over soccer as Olympic teams.
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Pretty sure the if the US wants to do a boycott the team will hear about.
 
#9,078
#9,078
Burhead said:
Pretty sure the if the US wants to do a boycott the team will hear about.
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Honestly, for the sake of the team and American fan safety, it would probably be a good security decision to boycott regardless of the politics.
 
#9,079
#9,079
Burhead said:
How so? No different than joining a terrorist group.
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if it is just fighters returning, i don't have as much of a problem with it, especially if they are returning with weapons (and how do you prove that they fought/and who they fought for). However if this morphs into stopping anyone from traveling over there, and plans to be in Ukraine as grounds for arrest I would have a major problem with that. you aren't guilty until you have done the action.

*and what happened to the amnesty?
 
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#9,080
#9,080
volprof said:
For a country that prides itself as being the world's frontline and official defender against fascism, Russia sure does seem to have a lot of them. Of course, when the guy sitting in the Kremlin is one, I guess it's advisable to just follow the leader.
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Culturally, "fascist" and "Nazi" are terms dropped against anyone who stands in the leader's way or in some way disparages Russia and its policies. Simon Wiesenthal would be labeled a Nazi if he spoke out against Putin. Well, Jews may get the label "Zionist". Russians do like their broad generalizations thanks to what Communism did to their psyche. Ras and Pacer would fit in well with their broad generalizations.

Like I said before, leader, people, nation is linked in Russia (and many other nations for that matter). Here in the US, Obama's policies are considered 'Obama policies', not 'American policies'. If you went to Russia, most Russians equate and group Americans with everything Obama does. To them America is solidly gay, deviant, drug abusing, racist, anti-religion, rotten to the core corrupt top to bottom. Even Ras and Pacer get thrown in that group. Even the Mormons who used to freely travel in Russia were grouped like this. Russians come here to a rude awakening to see things differently. Get on the internet - we can freely hate and trash our President. Turn on the radio or TV - hate on aspects of culture, President, etc. There is no "American culture" - well in relation to a single, unified group-think way of living. We are individualists who happen to group in our likeminded areas of thought - many different combinations of groups. Russians are typically groups who rarely dip into individualist thought. Even a generation removed from Communism, there are embedded concepts in their psyche.
 
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#9,081
#9,081
LouderVol said:
if it is just fighters returning, i don't have as much of a problem with it, especially if they are returning with weapons (and how do you prove that they fought/and who they fought for). However if this morphs into stopping anyone from traveling over there, and plans to be in Ukraine as grounds for arrest I would have a major problem with that. you aren't guilty until you have done the action.

*and what happened to the amnesty?
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They posted pictures online with them with weapons and in uniform what more proof is needed? Also as far as I know amnesty is only to native Ukrainians.
 
#9,082
#9,082
volprof said:
Fascism.

Hey, dizzy, where all have you been in Russia? I know you've mentioned the Caucasus, but more specifically?
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Mainly St Pete and Moscow. Irkutsk is the farthest into Siberia I have been. Yekaterinberg, Murmansk up north. A few other cities just to say I've been there - like Volgograd to see some of the Stalingrad monuments. My adventures out and about are more along historical curiosity than anything. Most of anything missions related has been between the western border and Moscow. Winter months are a dread. Too freakin' cold and dark all the time.
 
#9,083
#9,083
CSpindizzy said:
Long but good article pointing out a lot of things.

Putin has mastered the art of destroying any opposition. He has used endless tools to his credit. Most have been trumped up charges to arrest or deport many who oppose him (we're talking political rivals mind you). He's seized the assets of many. He's imprisoned family members with trumped up charges. The frenzied Duma has even banned many opposition parties.

But his latest move - drive such a hatred of America and wrap everything American around one person - Obama - and then connect him to the opposition. Putin has crafted this whole coup, American puppet, 'just like Ukraine', etc. narrative that his closest political rivals are now being connected to Obama and saying the 'evil' of what happened in Ukraine will happen to Russia if any Russian supports Navalny, Nemtsov, etc. These guys have NO connection to Obama or America but thanks to Putin's crafting of propaganda (and with full media control how can you counter this?) his closest political threats are neutralized. And with full control of both the Duma and the media, he prevents countermoves and can change laws to ensure he remains in office. Devious.

Why Moscow's anti-Maidan protesters are putting on elaborate pretence | World news | The Guardian
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I've not thought about it before, but does anyone else get the impression that a lot of this crisis has been amped up by Putin as a means of extending his terms in office? Concoct a strong enough crisis, at least in the minds of Russians, and he can justify making a change to the Russian Constitution to extend his stay permanently. I think most Russians, agitated and stirred into enough frenzy, would willingly submit. Wouldn't be too much of a fuss.

We already know he concocted the 1999 Apartment Bombings and the Second Chechen War to get his first term in office. Why wouldn't he approach Ukraine or false crises in other former republics/territories in a similar fashion?
 
#9,084
#9,084
CSpindizzy said:
For the Putin apologists here - and pardon for not wanting to look through 9K posts to verify - but did any of you claim NATO promised not to expand? I know that is the Kremlin narrative to excuse their illegal seizure of Crimea. Just curious if that was discussed here.
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Yes. A thousand times yes. It has been discussed.
 
#9,085
#9,085
Burhead said:
They posted pictures online with them with weapons and in uniform what more proof is needed? Also as far as I know amnesty is only to native Ukrainians.
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didn't know the amnesty only applied to natives. in this case i agree/am fine with it; i just think it is a slippery slope issue.
 
#9,086
#9,086
volprof said:
Yes. A thousand times yes. It has been discussed.
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to build on this they misquote the original agreement. they seem to think that when it said no NATO forces could move east past West Germany until the Russians were gone (a specific date) that that applies to all future dealings. and they also think an agreement between the US, USSR and East & West Germany applied to all the other 'new' countries even though the agreement was specifically only between the four countries listed.
 
#9,088
#9,088
CSpindizzy said:
Culturally, "fascist" and "Nazi" are terms dropped against anyone who stands in the leader's way or in some way disparages Russia and its policies. Simon Wiesenthal would be labeled a Nazi if he spoke out against Putin. Well, Jews may get the label "Zionist". Russians do like their broad generalizations thanks to what Communism did to their psyche. Ras and Pacer would fit in well with their broad generalizations.

Like I said before, leader, people, nation is linked in Russia (and many other nations for that matter). Here in the US, Obama's policies are considered 'Obama policies', not 'American policies'. If you went to Russia, most Russians equate and group Americans with everything Obama does. To them America is solidly gay, deviant, drug abusing, racist, anti-religion, rotten to the core corrupt top to bottom. Even Ras and Pacer get thrown in that group. Even the Mormons who used to freely travel in Russia were grouped like this. Russians come here to a rude awakening to see things differently. Get on the internet - we can freely hate and trash our President. Turn on the radio or TV - hate on aspects of culture, President, etc. There is no "American culture" - well in relation to a single, unified group-think way of living. We are individualists who happen to group in our likeminded areas of thought - many different combinations of groups. Russians are typically groups who rarely dip into individualist thought. Even a generation removed from Communism, there are embedded concepts in their psyche.
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Excellent post.

But I believe the proper term for a Jew is "Ziofascist."

Learned that on the RT forums.
 
#9,089
#9,089
volprof said:
I've not thought about it before, but does anyone else get the impression that a lot of this crisis has been amped up by Putin as a means of extending his terms in office? Concoct a strong enough crisis, at least in the minds of Russians, and he can justify making a change to the Russian Constitution to extend his stay permanently.
Click to expand...

You've been hanging out with the tinfoil Obamabots too much. Putin still has over three years left on his term.
 
#9,090
#9,090
Velo Vol said:
You've been hanging out with the tinfoil Obamabots too much. Putin still has over three years left on his term.
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and hasn't he already he (Putin) rewritten some parts to get himself back in/more powers? that may be MSM talking but i seem to remember something about that.
 
#9,091
#9,091
volprof said:
I've not thought about it before, but does anyone else get the impression that a lot of this crisis has been amped up by Putin as a means of extending his terms in office? Concoct a strong enough crisis, at least in the minds of Russians, and he can justify making a change to the Russian Constitution to extend his stay permanently. I think most Russians, agitated and stirred into enough frenzy, would willingly submit. Wouldn't be too much of a fuss.

We already know he concocted the 1999 Apartment Bombings and the Second Chechen War to get his first term in office. Why wouldn't he approach Ukraine or false crises in other former republics/territories in a similar fashion?
Click to expand...

Yes, his arrival has the specter of what Ras and Pacer would like to equate to a coup. A little known man digs his way up and inserts himself after a created crisis. He gets his two terms and steps out, putting his puppet Medvedev in. Then 2008 comes. We know the events that transpired that year. Medvedev then changes the constitution to allow for a move from 4 to 6 year terms. He rushes this through even though the Russian constitution states a year long process for any amendments to it. And Putin comes back to the ability for 12 more years in office. He holds full control of the Duma and could have them do whatever he wanted to the constitution with little opposition to stop him. With no opposition and mass public support this guy has the ability to make changes that rival Hitler in the early to mid-30's. Events like Ukraine and Crimea only serve to further his grip on control. He has the economy, the press, the church. What else is left but to begin looking outward?
 
#9,092
#9,092
CSpindizzy said:
Mainly St Pete and Moscow. Irkutsk is the farthest into Siberia I have been. Yekaterinberg, Murmansk up north. A few other cities just to say I've been there - like Volgograd to see some of the Stalingrad monuments. My adventures out and about are more along historical curiosity than anything. Most of anything missions related has been between the western border and Moscow. Winter months are a dread. Too freakin' cold and dark all the time.
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Man, that would be awesome. I would love to visit Russia. I've always been fascinated by it; even as a boy I would spend hours looking through encyclopedia articles on Russia and Siberia, etc. Despite my posts, I'm really not against Russia or Russians. Historically and geographically, it's easy (and somewhat understandable) to see how they've gotten into the position they are politically. Two things are keeping me back from visiting though. I'm worried that Americans there might be mistreated, and, the biggest one, my wife (of Baltic ancestry) despises Russia and Russians.

So, let's see here. You've seen the two biggest cultural centers, the Northern Fleet, the place where Nicholas II and his family were shot, the place where Velo warns us never to begin in a game of Risk, and the Motherland Calls monument? That's awesome!
 
#9,093
#9,093
LouderVol said:
to build on this they misquote the original agreement. they seem to think that when it said no NATO forces could move east past West Germany until the Russians were gone (a specific date) that that applies to all future dealings. and they also think an agreement between the US, USSR and East & West Germany applied to all the other 'new' countries even though the agreement was specifically only between the four countries listed.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, it was never an actual formal agreement. Just a so-called "handshake" deal.
 
#9,095
#9,095
volprof said:
Yes. A thousand times yes. It has been discussed.
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Just making sure. This is coming back in the narrative in the Russian media. Knowing how our own apologist group here follows those trends, I was curious to see if this was discussed and any evidence found its way forth. I know the answer to the evidence but that typically does not stop the usual suspects from trying.

With even Gorby saying we never promised not to expand I just find it humorous that Putin still insists this is the case and his minions carry that line forward.
 
#9,098
#9,098
volprof said:
Don't underestimate the Putster.
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I have no idea whether or not he aspires to extend his reign. If he does, launching a risky war with three years to go in his term is a dumb way to achieve it.

CSpindizzy said:
With even Gorby saying we never promised not to expand I just find it humorous that Putin still insists this is the case and his minions carry that line forward.
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Gorby sounds a bit conflicted these days
 
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