Ukraine Protests

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#4,626
#4,626
red butler said:
As for the sovereignty of Ukraine, like many Eastern European and Middle Eastern countries, the boundaries seem artificially drawn to fit some bureaucrat's idea of what a country should look like. Just looking at the ethnicity breakdown and the terrain, it doesn't make sense to be one country (much like Iraq).
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Sykes-Picot...
 
#4,627
#4,627
red butler said:
Russia had no motive to overthrow the government. They were backing out of joining the EU, they owed Russia billions of dollars, and the new government was anti-Russia.
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Who said they overthrew the Yany govt.? I was simply pointing out the blame they share, along with him, for the crisis.
 
#4,628
#4,628
Rasputin_Vol said:
I posted a video from Paul Craig Roberts a few weeks ago regarding the threat to world peace and the possibility of some US officials believing we could win a first strike nuclear war and got this response:



The video in question...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lPeeGT8uVI[/youtube]
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Yep, hard to believe a fine institution of higher learning like UVA gives a conspiracy theorist like him a doctorate.
 
#4,630
#4,630
Rasputin_Vol said:
Explain to me why the US has interest in The Ukraine if it isn't for their own interests? Are we just playing the benelovent Super Power trying to restore democracy in Ukraine? :crazy: Or do we have other motives?
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Of course not.

But at least I can admit that.

All you do all day long is go around towing the Putin line like its dogma or something. Not one single time have you questioned Russia's actions in this entire thread.

Admit it, you're a Russian nationalist (only God knows why), and you think that eastern Ukraine is entitled to do whatever it wants, yet Ukraine is just some fabrication that Russia created and, therefore, it belongs to Russia always and forever.

I may be hypocritical at times, but at least I can admit it.
 
#4,631
#4,631
volprof said:
You know, I was thinking, it's kind of weird how the US and Russia were once the best of buds (or something damn near close). Russian nobles used to even come here to hunt, squired about by US politicians and dignitaries. And I'm sure Americans went to Russia in a similar visiting capacity as well.

With the exception of what I call the "Yeltsin Flourish" (which wasn't always peachy itself), it's all been downhill from those days.

Although long gone, the Bolsheviks are still watching us.
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Aleksandr) Solzhenitsyn said that for every country, great power status deforms and harms the national character and that he has never wished great power status for Russia. He rejected the view that the USA and Russia are natural rivals, saying that before the [Russian] revolution, they were natural allies and that during the American Civil War, Russia supported Lincoln and the North [in contrast to Britain and France, which supported the Confederacy], and then they were allies in the First World War. But beginning with Communism, Russia ceased to exist and the confrontation was not at all with Russia but with the Communist Soviet Union.
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Interesting information in this video about Germany and Russia's involvement in the Civil War.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oHpWk4X7CU[/youtube]
 
#4,632
#4,632
volprof said:
Now, take all of that, invert it, and times it by about 10 or so, and you have Russia's potential involvement.
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How can you even make that statement without any proof? He gave you an itemized list and all you reply back with is multiply that by 10 and that's Russia's involvement?
 
#4,633
#4,633
volprof said:
Of course not.

But at least I can admit that.

All you do all day long is go around towing the Putin line like its dogma or something. Not one single time have you questioned Russia's actions in this entire thread.

Admit it, you're a Russian nationalist (only God knows why), and you think that eastern Ukraine is entitled to do whatever it wants, yet Ukraine is just some fabrication that Russia created and, therefore, it belongs to Russia always and forever.

I may be hypocritical at times, but at least I can admit it.
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What are you talking about? I've said since the very beginning that Russia has more interest in the destiny of Ukraine than the US. Not saying that it is good or bad, but Russia is not going to allow the US to instigate a coup or destabilize a country that not only borders Russia, but has a 500+ year history with Russia (The Kiev Rus?). I've also said that Russia has more business in Ukraine than the US does, which is half a world away. Why is Ukraine so critical for the US?

I'm not naive and think that Russia hasn't had some involvement in assisting the Eastern forces, either. But as far as these media claims or claims from Ukraine or the White House about and "invasion" or Russian heavy equipment rolling in to Ukraine, I just think it sounds ridiculous if they don't have any proof of this. I mean really... how hard would it be for the US surveillance satellites and reconnaissance drones to pick up heavy Russian troop movement? I mean, lets get real people. If the US actually had proof of this, they would be parading that stuff around like I don't know what. The only thing the US has offered up as proof is posts by alleged fighters in eastern Ukraine on social media sites, 5 year old Google map images and grainy/fuzzy a$$ed photos that appear to be shot with a 40 year old Polaroid camera, not an updated HD image of anything.
 
#4,634
#4,634
volprof said:
Admit it, you're a Russian nationalist (only God knows why), and you think that eastern Ukraine is entitled to do whatever it wants, yet Ukraine is just some fabrication that Russia created and, therefore, it belongs to Russia always and forever.
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I don't have a dog in the Russian/Ukrainian fight. I'm just speaking about the truth the way that I see it. My main hope is that we get control of our (USA) country back from these guys in Washington and stop going on these military expeditions around the world where we destabilize countries halfway around the world just for the sake of propping up a phoney-baloney currency and a group of banking oligarchs. People are dying unnecessarily in The Ukraine because we chose to meddle in Ukrainian affairs that the average person in America (you and myself included) had no idea about or care about just 10 months ago. But all of a sudden, a decision to join a sinking ship like the EU is enough of a cause for the guys in Washington to push humanity to the brink of a nuclear world war?

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connexion as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off, when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon, to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

George Washington's Farewell Address
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#4,635
#4,635
$$

putin-obama-chess-vs-bingo-checkers.jpg
 
#4,636
#4,636
volprof said:
Hey, red, I can tell you seem to like Russian history like myself. If you haven't already, you might consider giving Martin Sixsmith's "Russia: A Thousand Year Chronicle of the Wild East" a read. My wife bought it for me for our anniversary, and I enjoyed every bit of it.

Also, if pressed for time, this is another good guide that the History Channel did some years ago. "Russia: Land of the Tsars." I love watching it. I find the ending particularly profound and poignant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r_WXKto268&list=PL658EE0F2CE09D44E
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I meant to thank you for the suggestion earlier. I'll check it out, but if it's 600 pages... I won't have time for that lol.
 
#4,637
#4,637
volprof said:
Yep, hard to believe a fine institution of higher learning like UVA gives a conspiracy theorist like him a doctorate.
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Have you read his bio? He's been in the highest levels of government, journalism, and education. So it's not just UVA. If he's just a wacko conspiracy theorist, it's hard to believe the Wall Street Journal, Reagan administration, numerous colleges, thinktanks, and DOD would give him high level jobs. Maybe, and I know this sounds crazy, his positions have given him insight into the conspiracy.
 
#4,638
#4,638
red butler said:
Have you read his bio? He's been in the highest levels of government, journalism, and education. So it's not just UVA. If he's just a wacko conspiracy theorist, it's hard to believe the Wall Street Journal, Reagan administration, numerous colleges, thinktanks, and DOD would give him high level jobs. Maybe, and I know this sounds crazy, his positions have given him insight into the conspiracy.
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That's all fine and dandy, but what can he tell us about Russia? It's like they're just a player sitting on the sideline, hoping things will work their way. There is an entire discourse and paradigm to place this crisis in that a man like Roberts doesn't even consider. For instance, how does this crisis fit into the paradigm of Eurasianism, a political philosophy that has been around for a century or more but has gained a lot of steam over the last decade with the Russian govt. elite, including Putin? "Getting the band back together," what's it's role?

I'm not necessarily suggesting this is how we should exclusively think about the crisis, but it seems to me this is just one facet (and a major one at that) of the situation that observers like Roberts constantly keep neglecting, simply casting it as some sort of American/Western fait accompli. (And just for the record, the notion that the CIA had anything to do with this is absurd, not least of which because the Ukrainian govt. and SBU are so infiltrated by Russian sympathizers and agents that a CIA involvement in the crisis would have been impossible.)
 
#4,641
#4,641
LouderVol said:
kinda funny that at the end of the article it sums up the Putin assumes that NATO won't get involved to defend its members because it didn't step in to defend a non-member.
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So NATO continues to flirt with Ukraine, but won't offer it weapons.

It's complicated.
 
#4,642
#4,642
volprof said:
(And just for the record, the notion that the CIA had anything to do with this is absurd, not least of which because the Ukrainian govt. and SBU are so infiltrated by Russian sympathizers and agents that a CIA involvement in the crisis would have been impossible.)
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I don't understand this comment. The CIA does secret operations and has assets all over the world. By your logic they wouldn't be able to conduct operations in any country that has an intelligence service; and we know that's not the case.
 
#4,648
#4,648
red butler said:
I don't understand this comment. The CIA does secret operations and has assets all over the world. By your logic they wouldn't be able to conduct operations in any country that has an intelligence service; and we know that's not the case.
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It would seem that way; however, I highly doubt any of the other security services we infiltrate are as redolent with Russian FSB and SVR feet stink as that of Ukraine's. While we could (and probably did and still do) have some agents in the SBU, I highly doubt they could have orchestrated a coup without the Russian side learning about it and, in turn, preventing it should they really not want Yany out.
 
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#4,650
#4,650
Oh dear, god. In his closing remarks, Rasmussen just announced that Georgia and Montenegro are currently in the process of becoming NATO members.

Nothing about Ukrainian membership though, at least.
 
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