Ukraine Protests

[volprof]

Germany and Turkey are no surprise, but the other ones are. The Holodomor is a complicated subject. I've seen it explained as part of Stalin's collectivization projects, impacting Russians likewise, and I've seen it explained as outright "Hitler-esque" ethnic cleansing.

Like most things, the truth is probably somewhere in between. Either way, Stalin is still a dick.

 

[Velo Vol]

Either way, Stalin is still a dick.

Harsh.

This weekend is the 75th anniversary of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Fun times.

 

[Velo Vol]

Ukraine is still Soviet enough to have a military parade to celebrate Independence day.

Beats the one in Donetsk, though.

 

[volprof]

Harsh.

This weekend is the 75th anniversary of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Fun times.

Just one more reason why I don't do the "hail the Soviet allies" thing, like some people. They're just as culpable for starting the war as Germany and Japan. Their original intentions just got derailed, that's all. But, wouldn't you know it, at the end of the day, their original intentions were still basically realized: destroy fascism and take over at least half of Europe.

 

[volprof]

http://rt.com/news/182404-donetsk-forces-trap-hardware/

The grassroots protesters are apparently turning the tide in eastern Ukraine. Ras can go have himself a cupcake this afternoon. Looks like his country just might get to expand some more after all.

 

[volprof]

I've been saying at times in this thread that Russia is the only country on Earth to have claimed another nation's land not once but twice within the last decade, the implied territories being Crimea and South Ossetia. Actually, I was wrong. I forgot Abkhazia. So that's three territories Russia has claimed within the last decade. And while Abkhazia and South Ossetia are technically "independent," is there any doubt who runs the show there?

I mean, this is just unheard of. Who in the hell does this!

And yes, Ras, I know those others were also the result of CIA coups that went awry. You don't have to remind me. Everything Russia does is just a response to an illegal CIA coup somewhere.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I've been saying at times in this thread that Russia is the only country on Earth to have claimed another nation's land not once but twice within the last decade, the implied territories being Crimea and South Ossetia. Actually, I was wrong. I forgot Abkhazia. So that's three territories Russia has claimed within the last decade. And while Abkhazia and South Ossetia are technically "independent," is there any doubt who runs the show there?

I mean, this is just unheard of. Who in the hell does this!

And yes, Ras, I know those others were also the result of CIA coups that went awry. You don't have to remind me. Everything Russia does is just a response to an illegal CIA coup somewhere.

The bottom line is that 9 months ago, you had a unified Ukraine. Then, the provocateurs come in and blew up the country based on a decision not to join the EU.

1. No one then or now can convince me that Ukraine would have benefitted from joining the EU. The EU is already on its death bed with the potential of Germany jumping ship. And how has the EU benefitted the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain)?

2. One thing I forgot until recently, is that the Ukraine at the time was only going to be given "junior" membership status, and not be a full-fledged member. So basically, Ukraine would have given up its sovereignty to the EU and not had any of the full member benefits.

3. Another question that has to be asked is what economic benefit does Ukraine provide the EU? Outside of being the bread basket of Europe, what significant benefit does it give the EU?

4. IMO, Poland, Georgia and Ukraine are targeted by the west as firewalls against Russia creating the ultimate goal of creating an Eurasian trade zone. If Russia is able to establish this trade zone(time is on their side, it is merely a question of "when" not "if" at this point), then you will see the Anglo-American influence not only in Europe, but worldwide diminish significantly. This has very little to do with fears of Russia doing lands grabs and everything to do with Russia eroding away Anglo-American hegemony and the weakening of the USD as the world reserve currency.

 

[37L1]

It's Bush's fault.

 

[volprof]

The bottom line is that 9 months ago, you had a unified Ukraine. Then, the provocateurs come in and blow up the country based on a decision not the join the EU.

1. No one then or now can convince me that Ukraine would have benefitted from joining the EU. The EU is already on its death bed with the potential of Germany jumping ship. And how has the EU benefitted the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain)?

2. One thing I forgot until recently, is that the Ukraine at the time was only going to be given "junior" membership status, and not be a full-fledged member. So basically, Ukraine would have given up its sovereignty to the EU and not had any of the full member benefits.

3. Another question that has to be asked is what economic benefit does Ukraine provide the EU? Outside of being the bread basket of Europe, what significant benefit does it give the EU?

4. IMO, Poland, Georgia and Ukraine are targeted by the west as firewalls against Russia creating the ultimate goal of creating an Eurasian trade zone. If Russia is able to establish this trade zone(time is on their side, it is merely a question of "when" not "if" at this point), then you will see the Anglo-American influence not only in Europe, but worldwide diminish significantly. This has very little to do with fears of Russia doing lands grabs and everything to do with Russia eroding away Anglo-American hegemony and the weakening of the USD as the world reserve currency.

Great way to deflect attention from Russian land grabbing.

Whether or not it would benefit them in reality, fact is the majority of Ukrainians wanted it and Yany even ran on that platform for his reelection bid. No wonder they were so pissed when he reneged. Running on a campaign pledging to fundamentally realign and reshape the nation and then cancelling those plans is a pretty big ****ing deal. Those people on the Maidan had every right to be ticked off.

And I've told you once, but I'll tell you again. Stop calling it "the Ukraine," Vlad. It's not yours anymore. And honestly, it never truly was.

 

[Grand Vol]

I'm trying to figure out when the EU started making people revoke their national identity. The countries I visited while I was there still called themselves Germans and Belgians and Poles. I never once heard anyone call themselves "Eu-er"

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm trying to figure out when the EU started making people revoke their national identity. The countries I visited while I was there still called themselves Germans and Belgians and Poles. I never once heard anyone call themselves "Eu-er"

What do you mean? I said the Ukrainians risk losing their sovereignty by joining the EU as a junior member, meaning the ability to control their own destiny. I said nothing about them losing their identity.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Great way to deflect attention from Russian land grabbing.

Whether or not it would benefit them in reality, fact is the majority of Ukrainians wanted it and Yany even ran on that platform for his reelection bid. No wonder they were so pissed when he reneged. Running on a campaign pledging to fundamentally realign and reshape the nation and then cancelling those plans is a pretty big ****ing deal. Those people on the Maidan had every right to be ticked off.

And I've told you once, but I'll tell you again. Stop calling it "the Ukraine," Vlad. It's not yours anymore. And honestly, it never truly was.

And that was justification for us to instigate an overthrow of a sovereign nation... all based on a broken campaign promise? Really? And a decision to join the EU that would have questionable benefits, at best, if not loss of national sovereignty and no economic benefits, at worst.

 

[Burhead]

And that was justification for us to instigate an overthrow of a sovereign nation... all based on a broken campaign promise? Really? And a decision to join the EU that would have questionable benefits, at best, if not loss of national sovereignty and no economic benefits, at worst.

I'd rather be in the European Union than under the boot of Russian oppression.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'd rather be in the European Union than under the boot of Russian oppression.

In 24-36 months, we will see which way some of the PIGS countries swing and we will re-address this issue then. As a matter of fact, Spain and Greece are getting crushed with these sanctions right now along with their debt and bad economies.

 

[volprof]

And that was justification for us to instigate an overthrow of a sovereign nation... all based on a broken campaign promise? Really? And a decision to join the EU that would have questionable benefits, at best, if not loss of national sovereignty and no economic benefits, at worst.

Stop. Just stop. I grow weary of you.

And on a related note, you're probably the biggest Russian ass kisser I've ever seen. You whine all the time about the US trying to control other people, yet scoff at the idea of a sovereign people wanting EU membership.

I'd hate to see what you look like when Putin gets out of the pool from his morning swims.

 

[Burhead]

You wanna know how sick those Russian bastards are in Donetsk? They're parading captured Ukrainian through the streets.

 

[volprof]

You wanna know how sick those Russian bastards are in Donetsk? They're parading captured Ukrainian through the streets.

Can't be. It's a CIA coup.

 

[Godfatha]

What do you expect when you get your news from state run Russian media?

 

[Grand Vol]

What do you mean? I said the Ukrainians risk losing their sovereignty by joining the EU as a junior member, meaning the ability to control their own destiny. I said nothing about them losing their identity.

So you are saying any nation that joins the EU loses control of their destiny?

Really? Probably news to the nations under the EU right now.

 

[Velo Vol]

3. Another question that has to be asked is what economic benefit does Ukraine provide the EU? Outside of being the bread basket of Europe, what significant benefit does it give the EU?

Better access to its markets, among other things.

4. IMO, Poland, Georgia and Ukraine are targeted by the west as firewalls against Russia creating the ultimate goal of creating an Eurasian trade zone. If Russia is able to establish this trade zone(time is on their side, it is merely a question of "when" not "if" at this point), then you will see the Anglo-American influence not only in Europe, but worldwide diminish significantly. This has very little to do with fears of Russia doing lands grabs and everything to do with Russia eroding away Anglo-American hegemony and the weakening of the USD as the world reserve currency.

OK, I guess they'll just be sitting enviously on the sidelines with the rest of us when Kazakhstan undergoes its great economic boon.

What do you mean? I said the Ukrainians risk losing their sovereignty by joining the EU as a junior member, meaning the ability to control their own destiny. I said nothing about them losing their identity.

It's not without some drawbacks. But that's largely the function of having an economy in the toilet/needing bailed out, rather than EU membership.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So you are saying any nation that joins the EU loses control of their destiny?

To an extent, they do. But it will especially be true for the Ukraine because they were just going to be a junior member (meaning a convenient trading partner).

Eastern Partnership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First, conceptually the EU has limited uniform awareness of what it is trying to promote in its eastern neighbourhood under the aegis of 'shared values', 'collective norms' and ‘joint ownership'. Secondly, empirically, the EU seems to favour a ‘top-down’ governance approach (based on rule/norm transfer and conditionality) in its relations with outsiders, which is clearly at odds with a voluntary idea of 'partnership', and explicitly limits the input of 'the other' in the process of reform.

 

[volprof]

Better access to its markets, among other things.



OK, I guess they'll just be sitting enviously on the sidelines with the rest of us when Kazakhstan undergoes its great economic boon.




It's not without some drawbacks. But that's largely the function of having an economy in the toilet/needing bailed out, rather than EU membership.

Ukraine is in the ****ter like it is precisely because it has had too many leaders who like to kiss Russian butt.

God forbid the majority of Ukrainians want something else.

And when they do, some clown comes in to accuse them of being the pawns of a CIA coup.

 

[volprof]

To an extent, they do. But it will especially be true for the Ukraine because they were just going to be a junior member (meaning a convenient trading partner).

Eastern Partnership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You just won't stop with "the Ukraine," will you?

I want to know, right here and now, what is your definition of Russia? Precisely, what do you think constitutes "Russia"?

Don't ignore and don't deflect. I want to know.

 

[Velo Vol]

You wanna know how sick those Russian bastards are in Donetsk? They're parading captured Ukrainian through the streets.

Some in the crowd threw stuff at the POWs. Classy.

A violation of the Geneva Convention, among other things.

 

[volprof]

Some in the crowd threw stuff at the POWs. Classy.

A violation of the Geneva Convention, among other things.

The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to grassroots protesters.