Ukraine Protests

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#3,976
#3,976
volprof said:
So China kills its bankers. Well, perhaps they deserve it. That is a good ethical question. Does one who has purposely failed a group of people and/or nation in order to gain personal profit deserve the firing squad? That is seriously a good question. I'm being honest.
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Well, lets see what the Founding Fathers have to say about this...

Section 19 of coinage act of 1792: death penalty for debasing currency

And be it further enacted, That if any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint shall be debased or made worse as to the proportion of the fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same out to be pursuant to the directions of this act, through the default or with the connivance of any of the officers or persons who shall be employed at the said mint, for the purpose of profit or gain, or otherwise with a fraudulent intent, and if any of the said officers or persons shall embezzle any of the metals which shall at any time be committed to their charge for the purpose of being coined, or any of the coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint, every such officer or person who shall commit any or either of the said offenses, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall suffer death. section 19 of coinage act of 1792
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What the FED, the big banks and our govt is doing right now is counterfeiting and debasing our currency. At the very least, instead of JPM being able to payout $20+ billion in fines to keep the scheme going, we should have people going to jail... and even put to death.

volprof said:
And your response seems very reasonable. I'm just skeptical of all governments, although I'm by no means an anarchist. I think it always comes down to a choice of the lesser evil. Humans are humans.
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I've never said anything that would lead anyone on here to think that there are perfect govts outside of the US. I have just been saying that right now, our govt is not the best available. I essence, I guess it would be choosing "the lesser evil" by not choosing to live under the present US govt.
 
#3,977
#3,977
volprof said:
Apparently Ukrainian forces have completely cut off Donestk city. If so, no more supplies will be coming in. It's about to get nitty-gritty time. Of course, this is like the 8th or 9th time I've probably said this in this thread.
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It will only be a matter of time before the Russians have to make a move. Putin can not afford to look weak or let the rebel movement die now in the eyes of the Russian people.
 
#3,978
#3,978
LouderVol said:
agreed. my dad taught me a pretty simple lessen in economics. When everybody is buying, sell. When everyone is selling, buy. People bought into the bubble even with the signs of failure, which increased the size of the bubble making it worse in the end.
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Using your dad's logic, what would your dad say to you if you asked him about buying or selling the stock market vs gold/silver?

weirdlook.gif
 
#3,979
#3,979
Burhead said:
It will only be a matter of time before the Russians have to make a move. Putin can not afford to look weak or let the rebel movement die now in the eyes of the Russian people.
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Despite his, Russia's, and Ukraine's respective best interests, you're right. I think he moves in precisely for the reason you state. He's whipped that nation into quasi-1930s Germany rhetoric and frenzy. They want to see action and movement now.
 
#3,980
#3,980
Rasputin_Vol said:
Using your dad's logic, what would your dad say to you if you asked him about buying or selling the stock market vs gold/silver?

weirdlook.gif
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That's quite a nefarious looking little face there.

And to the point of your previous post, fair enough. I think, however, given the wording of that act, it would be nearly impossible to hold up in a court of law regarding the investment bankers, although they've essentially done the same thing that act condemns.
 
#3,981
#3,981
Velo Vol said:
Uh oh. #WrongSideOfHistory
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The Russian commanders "are fleeing like rats," said Andrei, a 27-year-old rebel in Donetsk. Like other locals who have joined the separatist cause, he gave only his first name out of fear of retribution either from the rebel leadership for speaking freely or from the Ukrainian authorities for taking up arms.

"We had hoped for help from Moscow, we had expected Russian troops, but Russia betrayed us," Andrei said. "Many fighters are beginning to think about their future and also are escaping to Russia."

Oleg, a 34-year-old member of a different rebel battalion, said his unit is running out of food, clothes and medicine.

"But we are ready to fight to the end and to die," he said. "Russia left us here to die and we are ready. They simply used us and abandoned us."
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Wait a minute... hold on for second here. What is this guy saying? The western media has been telling us that Russia has been supporting and supplying the rebels.

You can't have it both ways...
 
#3,982
#3,982
Rasputin_Vol said:
Wait a minute... hold on for second here. What is this guy saying? The western media has been telling us that Russia has been supporting and supplying the rebels.

You can't have it both ways...
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Come on, Ras. You're smarter than this. The man is referring to Russian forces, the 20,000 or so at the border, not the token ones and special forces Moscow has sent in in order to keep its involvement "secret." He's talking about brigades, battalions. **** like that. Not just Russian soldiers that can help train hapless rebels how to man a Buk.

Edit: And you think you just find a bunch of weapons like that stored away in your grandpap's closet?
 
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#3,983
#3,983
volprof said:
Come on, Ras. You're smarter than this. The man is referring to Russian forces, the 20,000 or so at the border, not the token ones and special forces Moscow has sent in in order to keep its involvement "secret." He's talking about brigades, battalions. **** like that. Not just Russian soldiers that can help train hapless rebels how to man a Buk.
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Wait a minute, I thought they were US agents in disguise to do a false flag operation and shoot down more airliners or mass shootings of innocent civilians in order to provoke a US/NATO reaction?
 
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#3,984
#3,984
volprof said:
That's quite a nefarious looking little face there.

And to the point of your previous post, fair enough. I think, however, given the wording of that act, it would be nearly impossible to hold up in a court of law regarding the investment bankers, although they've essentially done the same thing that act condemns.
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There is no doubt in my mind that if you presented a case, it would (should) hold up in court.
 
#3,985
#3,985
volprof said:
Come on, Ras. You're smarter than this. The man is referring to Russian forces, the 20,000 or so at the border, not the token ones and special forces Moscow has sent in in order to keep its involvement "secret." He's talking about brigades, battalions. **** like that. Not just Russian soldiers that can help train hapless rebels how to man a Buk.

Edit: And you think you just find a bunch of weapons like that stored away in your grandpap's closet?
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You mean the 20,000 or so that was later found to be not "on the border" but actually about 400 miles away doing seasonal training exercises in Russia? If you has 20000 troops in Memphis, does that mean we have troops on the North Carolina border?

:crazy:
 
#3,986
#3,986
volprof said:
Come on, Ras. You're smarter than this. The man is referring to Russian forces, the 20,000 or so at the border, not the token ones and special forces Moscow has sent in in order to keep its involvement "secret." He's talking about brigades, battalions. **** like that. Not just Russian soldiers that can help train hapless rebels how to man a Buk.

Edit: And you think you just find a bunch of weapons like that stored away in your grandpap's closet?
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And even that claim is dubious, outside of word of mouth from Kiev forces and social media sources from the State Department, there is no proof the Eastern rebels even had a BUK missile. If they did, the US would have sent out more proof than it provided with a 2010 Google map screen capture and some sketches on a recent satellite image. I mean, when you put up the evidence that the US State Department has given us and compare it to that 30 minute presentation from Moscow, it's like comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
 
#3,987
#3,987
Rasputin_Vol said:
And even that claim is dubious, outside of word of mouth from Kiev forces and social media sources from the State Department, there is no proof the Eastern rebels even had a BUK missile. If they did, the US would have sent out more proof than it provided with a 2010 Google map screen capture and some sketches on a recent satellite image. I mean, when you put up the evidence that the US State Department has given us and compare it to that 30 minute presentation from Moscow, it's like comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
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Yeah, it's not like the rebels tweeted a week or so earlier that they now had a Buk system or anything.

You assume, rightfully I might add, that American media is biased. You also assume, rightfully I will also add, that the American govt. can be deceitful.

When, however, dealing with Russian media sources and those inside the Russian govt. as well, take the American problem and multiply it by about 47.589. And there you have your Russians.

Trust me, dude, I've done the math.
 
#3,988
#3,988
volprof said:
Yeah, it's not like the rebels tweeted a week or so earlier that they now had a Buk system or anything.

You assume, rightfully I might add, that American media is biased. You also assume, rightfully I will also add, that the American govt. can be deceitful.

When, however, dealing with Russian media sources and those inside the Russian govt. as well, take the American problem and multiply it by about 47.589. And there you have your Russians.

Trust me, dude, I've done the math.
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Rasputin_Vol said:
And even that claim is dubious, outside of word of mouth from Kiev forces and social media sources from the State Department, there is no proof the Eastern rebels even had a BUK missile. If they did, the US would have sent out more proof than it provided with a 2010 Google map screen capture and some sketches on a recent satellite image. I mean, when you put up the evidence that the US State Department has given us and compare it to that 30 minute presentation from Moscow, it's like comparing a Timex to a Rolex.
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Exactly, a tweet. Again, outside of social media that the State Department is using as evidence, what do they have? If the US was able to have this tweet ahead of time, does it not you wonder if the powers that be wouldn't have wanted to investigate this further and verify if this tweet was indeed true? What is the purpose of having all of this spy equipment if we don't use it to investigate such claims as this? The only thing we get for the US as evidence is a tweet... not something more concrete?
 
#3,989
#3,989
And really.. a tweet? Is this an acceptable form of military intelligence? Didn't the North Koreans announce a few years ago that their leader went to the sun or something like that? And how hard would it be for some Ukrainian/Kiev official or CIA official or any other random person looking to create havoc to set up a twitter and pose as some Eastern Ukrainian militant? Really? Twitter is our intelligence and information network? Do you see how silly this sounds if you are the State Department/US trying to sell this narrative to someone that is even on the fence? I'm not saying the US needs to sell it to people who have already made up their minds about this entire debacle. But at least have information that is credible enough that can push someone over to your side that is on the fence or neutral.
 
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#3,990
#3,990
Rasputin_Vol said:
And really.. a tweet? Is this an acceptable form of military intelligence? Didn't the North Koreans announce a few years ago that their leader went to the sun or something like that? And how hard would it be for some Ukrainian/Kiev official or CIA official or any other random person looking to create havoc to set up a twitter and pose as some Eastern Ukrainian militant? Really? Twitter is our intelligence and information network? Do you see how silly this sounds if you are the State Department/US trying to sell this narrative to someone that is even on the fence? I'm not saying the US needs to sell it to people who have already made up their minds about this entire debacle. But at least have information that is credible enough that can push someone over to your side that is on the fence or neutral.
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Says the guy that thinks some meandering Russian govt. evidence about how an aircraft that can't even reach that air ceiling was somehow capable of briefly overcoming that limitation and shooting down the MH 17.

I understand why you're so critical of American media and our govt., but why do you give Russians a free pass?

You're talking about a country that has made massacres a national pastime, even as late as the early 2000s.

Perhaps that's not been your intention, but it certainly has come across that way throughout this thread.
 
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#3,991
#3,991
Rasputin_Vol said:
And really.. a tweet? Is this an acceptable form of military intelligence? Didn't the North Koreans announce a few years ago that their leader went to the sun or something like that? And how hard would it be for some Ukrainian/Kiev official or CIA official or any other random person looking to create havoc to set up a twitter and pose as some Eastern Ukrainian militant? Really? Twitter is our intelligence and information network? Do you see how silly this sounds if you are the State Department/US trying to sell this narrative to someone that is even on the fence? I'm not saying the US needs to sell it to people who have already made up their minds about this entire debacle. But at least have information that is credible enough that can push someone over to your side that is on the fence or neutral.
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Why don't you just admit that no matter the evidence the West presents to the world that Russia is indeed the aggressor, you're immediately going to deny it and continue buying into the Kremlin propaganda talking points.
 
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#3,992
#3,992
Burhead said:
Why don't you just admit that no matter the evidence the West presents to the world that Russia is indeed the aggressor, you're immediately going to deny it and continue buying into the Kremlin propaganda talking points.
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Vladimir Vladimirovich_Vol
 
#3,993
#3,993
volprof said:
I understand why you're so critical of American media and our govt., but why do you give Russians a free pass?
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I'm offering an opposing view. Just giving you something else to consider. Right now, Russia's winning the media and facts war... plain and simple. Russia offered real time photos and what "appeared" to be way more credible than what the US was offering.

You make mention of some aircraft that was not able to reach a certain altitude... what is this in reference to?
 
#3,994
#3,994
Burhead said:
Why don't you just admit that no matter the evidence the West presents to the world that Russia is indeed the aggressor, you're immediately going to deny it and continue buying into the Kremlin propaganda talking points.
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The US offered us a twitter post and a 2010 Google Maps screen capture as evidence. Are you kidding me?
 
#3,995
#3,995
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm offering an opposing view. Just giving you something else to consider. Right now, Russia's winning the media and facts war... plain and simple. Russia offered real time photos and what "appeared" to be way more credible than what the US was offering.

You make mention of some aircraft that was not able to reach a certain altitude... what is this in reference to?
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Photographs? Photographs of what? Russian media has been releasing photographs of crucified children, yet these have been from Syria instead of Ukraine.

Yes, the Su-25 conspiracy theory. Some of the Russian govt. have advocated this line as well.

Again, we're talking about a govt. that is currently led by a man who had nearly 400 of his fellows killed just to entrench his power when he first came to office. Our govt. is bad, but this one is just plain whack.
 
#3,998
#3,998
Burhead said:
You think they are going to release everything they have?
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As was pointed out in one of the State Department press conferences a few weeks back, Robert McNamara released aerial photos of Russia moving missiles to Cuba in the early 1960's. The Russians offered the same thing in their 30 minute presentation 2 weeks ago.

All we did was offer some tweets and some screen captures. And what could they possibly have to hide? The Russians already know what US satellites were over Eastern Ukraine at the time the plane was downed. Why not at the very least show those photos? There is no security advantage lost be releasing the photos because the Russians are already aware the satellite was there.
 
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