Ukraine II: The Fight Against Russian Aggression

#1,676
#1,676
Pacer92 said:
Ukraine is a cluster of corruption now that the US has infiltrated the govt via the coup in 2014...

Its economy is in shambles. Engaged in a civil war. Its government is ran by neo Nazi puppets installed by your own US govt.

This is what our govt does...

https://youtu.be/oXEF8HolCKg

https://youtu.be/uljUTmLaGZ4

https://youtu.be/aICVfb7xqw0
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lol. you say that when there were guys like Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych holding power before this got started?

and to the Nazi part, the same ones that want us gone and don't like the other puppets we installed? This is where you conspiracy world gets tiring and confusing. We used two different powers to kick out the old guy, get them working together and fighting; then as things begin to level out we instigate one of our puppets against the other. Even though the instigator puppets (Nazis) are even less likely to join the EU than the guys we "have" there now? and apparently the EU has been our goal the whole time which just makes the Nazis a confusing piece to the puzzle.

I would appreciate conspiracies that are at least internally consistent. Lord knows I have enough I subscribe to as is.
 
#1,677
#1,677
Rasputin_Vol said:
I've shown it several times in this thread and the first Ukrainian thread that there are more foreigners running Kiev than there are Ukrainians.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Russians in fact have been in power in Kiev for centuries and still infiltrate its security services and bribe its politicians.

Good post.
 
#1,678
#1,678
LouderVol said:
US trained and they just commented on the fact that the M1A2 is the most advanced piece of military equipment they have ever seen, 8 years later. yeah, they were really trained. and does it really surprise you that after Russia invades a country, Georgia, that they want to leap into bed with Russia's biggest rival, the US? Its perfectly fricking logical.

and funny that you mention Georgia and Ukraine and encroaching against Russia in the same post.

even 8 years after they were invaded Georgia still hasn't joined NATO. Ukraine is stuck as well in limbo. how exactly has the US expanded, Montenegro? meanwhile Russia gets Donetsk, Crimea, South Ossetia, Abzhazia while being the "peaceful" (after an invasion and continuing creep). you can talk conspiracy all you want but look at the map, the only country redrawing borders is Russia (in the context of this conversation).
Click to expand...

I see you are falling in love with the word conspiracy and using it as defense when the facts support that the US is the aggressor...

Putin could've annexed any of E. Ukraine, South Ossetia, Abkhazia or even Georgia, but he hasn't...

If it's not abundantly clear that the US is in the regime change business then you are in total denial. The ex Georgian president, Saakashvili, was a US installed puppet after a US sponsored color revolution in 2003. His job was to provoke Russia, period. He did by invading the autonomous state of South Ossetia. Just a small portion of the Russian army embarrassed the Georgian army within days.....DAYS! Saakashvili is wanted in homeland to stand trial for being a war criminal, but instead, he works in Ukraine as the governor of Odessa....on the US payroll. Seems fitting.

Did Russia change the map by annexing South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia? Facts...

Secondly, after the US sponsored regime change in Kiev the people of E Ukraine did not recognize the new leaders of Ukraine. They were attacked by the Ukrainian army. These are facts...

Russia responded by supporting these people with military support(willingly admit), but to state it was an invasion of Ukraine would be false. As I stated before, we all know what a military invasion from Russia looks like.

There is no conspiracy that E Ukraine is still apart of Ukraine and it will stay that way unless US insistence plays their role...

The only conspiracy I see is the constant denial that the US is aggressively encroaching on the doorstep of Russia...
 
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#1,679
#1,679
Pacer92 said:
I see you are falling in love with the word conspiracy and using it as defense when the facts support that the US is the aggressor...

Putin could've annexed any of E. Ukraine, South Ossetia, Abkhazia or even Georgia, but he hasn't...

If it's not abundantly clear that the US is in the regime change business then you are in total denial. The ex Georgian president, Saakashvili, was a US installed puppet after a US sponsored color revolution in 2003. His job was to provoke Russia, period. He did by invading the autonomous state of South Ossetia. Just a small portion of the Russian army embarrassed the Georgian army within days.....DAYS! Saakashvili is wanted in homeland to stand trial for being a war criminal, but instead, he works in Ukraine as the governor of Odessa....on the US payroll. Seems fitting.

Did Russia change the map by annexing South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia? Facts...

Secondly, after the US sponsored regime change in Kiev the people of E Ukraine did not recognize the new leaders of Ukraine. They were attacked by the Ukrainian army. These are facts...

Russia responded by supporting these people with military support(willingly admit), but to state it was an invasion of Ukraine would be false. As I stated before, we all know what a military invasion from Russia looks like.

There is no conspiracy that E Ukraine is still apart of Ukraine and it will stay that way unless US insistence plays their role...

The only conspiracy I see is the constant denial that the US is aggressively encroaching on the doorstep of Russia...
Click to expand...

hmm...leaving part of the equation off aren't we? Crimea. and considering that Russia still has active duty troops in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia that doesn't help your argument either. and oh wait we still recognize those regions as part of Georgia so there goes that part.

and considering all the Russian flags flying over Donetsk I wouldn't really consider it part of Ukraine. and I like how the argument has changed from the people of Ukraine didn't like the new government to the people of Eastern Ukraine didn't like the new government. and that russia wasn't involved at all to Russia is just supplying very advanced pieces of technology that coal miners know how to work.

And if you follow the storyline it reads like an invasion from Russia at the turning points.

Rebels were losing dramatically. Russia sends "aide trucks" over the border. suddenly rebels are smashing aside everything in front of them despite having huge personnel issues a week before. Ukrainians successfully hold airport for weeks on end and suddenly the rebels get reinforcements from some straight up badasses and the Ukrainians are cleared out in a little more than 24 hours. while it wasn't a targeted invasion there is plenty of mission creep all over that mess that goes well beyond the rebels "finding some equipment".

yeah I will give you Montenegro, right on that border with Russia. and they are still not officially NATO. NATO just said they will vote on it. Georgia aligned with NATO AFTER they were invaded, no hidden agenda there, Georgia doesn't want to be invaded again. Ukraine suddenly develops problems as it trys to pull away from Russia to join the EU; but not NATO. lets see the next on the list are the Baltic Nations. that happened about 20 years ago and we have done jack with that and it has hurt Russia absolutely zero.

besides Montenegro who has the US seduced/bribed/revolutioned into NATO? Remember NATO has rules/standards/codes/something against accepting nations that have internal border disputes at the time of acceptance. With that being the case why would the US cause chaos in those countries if the ultimate goal is NATO. seeing that the very action voids the possibility of them joining. again its not an internally consistent argument, which is why I dubb it a conspiracy. we can call it whatever we want but it doesn't make it any more viable of an option.
 
#1,680
#1,680
LouderVol said:
hmm...leaving part of the equation off aren't we? Crimea. and considering that Russia still has active duty troops in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia that doesn't help your argument either. and oh wait we still recognize those regions as part of Georgia so there goes that part.

and considering all the Russian flags flying over Donetsk I wouldn't really consider it part of Ukraine. and I like how the argument has changed from the people of Ukraine didn't like the new government to the people of Eastern Ukraine didn't like the new government. and that russia wasn't involved at all to Russia is just supplying very advanced pieces of technology that coal miners know how to work.

And if you follow the storyline it reads like an invasion from Russia at the turning points.

Rebels were losing dramatically. Russia sends "aide trucks" over the border. suddenly rebels are smashing aside everything in front of them despite having huge personnel issues a week before. Ukrainians successfully hold airport for weeks on end and suddenly the rebels get reinforcements from some straight up badasses and the Ukrainians are cleared out in a little more than 24 hours. while it wasn't a targeted invasion there is plenty of mission creep all over that mess that goes well beyond the rebels "finding some equipment".

yeah I will give you Montenegro, right on that border with Russia. and they are still not officially NATO. NATO just said they will vote on it. Georgia aligned with NATO AFTER they were invaded, no hidden agenda there, Georgia doesn't want to be invaded again. Ukraine suddenly develops problems as it trys to pull away from Russia to join the EU; but not NATO. lets see the next on the list are the Baltic Nations. that happened about 20 years ago and we have done jack with that and it has hurt Russia absolutely zero.

besides Montenegro who has the US seduced/bribed/revolutioned into NATO? Remember NATO has rules/standards/codes/something against accepting nations that have internal border disputes at the time of acceptance. With that being the case why would the US cause chaos in those countries if the ultimate goal is NATO. seeing that the very action voids the possibility of them joining. again its not an internally consistent argument, which is why I dubb it a conspiracy. we can call it whatever we want but it doesn't make it any more viable of an option.
Click to expand...

Well, there ya go....That's the problem. We don't recognize those places as autonomous regions, but other people do. We support self governance or revolution only when it's convenient...

The thing is, Russia is not land grabbing when there have been multiple opportunities to do so. Yes, they took back the Crimea....noted. However, if this was their FP agenda then they would've annexed E Ukraine as well, and there would be no war going on in Ukraine. They could've annexed South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia if this was their program, but it's not...

Saakashvili was/is a US employee. He provoked a fight with Russia so they/we could cry "aggressive Russians" just like still are doing today. Everything is propagated this way, for it allows countries like Georgia and Ukraine to work closely with US/NATO afterward.....all a US scheme to weaken Russia in its own sphere...

Why do people refuse to acknowledge this? Because you're hearing, reading only one side and dismissing the other side entirely? If you can not put any credence into the Russian side you can't argue the facts....
 
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#1,682
#1,682
Some people should really have at least a basic understanding of the "post-Soviet frozen conflict" and its objectives before commenting on whether refusing to annex a region is a sign of good intent. See, it's a very simple concept, really: keep a region that has historically threatened to leave your sphere frozen in conflict, and it will forever be unable to completely leave your sphere. Annexing the most pro-Russian places in such regions would be foolish, as this would immediately allow the anti-Russian places in such regions to leave the sphere. Unless, that is, you're willing to invade them too. But that's always risky, and certainly very costly. This is the entire principle behind Stalin's "Russification" policies, but just in a different guise - keep "them" ethnically divided, and you will keep them indeed, even despite themselves.

It's an incredibly simple concept, and a brilliant one at that.
 
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#1,683
#1,683
Pacer92 said:
Well, there ya go....That's the problem. 3. We don't recognize those places as autonomous regions, but other people do. We support self governance or revolution only when it's convenient...

The thing is, Russia is not land grabbing when there have been multiple opportunities to do so. Yes, they took back the Crimea....noted. However, if this was their FP agenda then they would've annexed E Ukraine as well, and there would be no war going on in Ukraine. 1.They could've annexed South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia if this was their program, but it's not...

Saakashvili was/is a US employee. He provoked a fight with Russia so they/we could cry "aggressive Russians" just like still are doing today. 2. Everything is propagated this way, for it allows countries like Georgia and Ukraine to work closely with US/NATO afterward.....all a US scheme to weaken Russia in its own sphere...

Why do people refuse to acknowledge this? Because you're hearing, reading only one side and dismissing the other side entirely? 4. If you can not put any credence into the Russian side you can't argue the facts....
Click to expand...



1. yeah they could have annexed but instead they just occupy. Breakway Republic of South Ossetia Claims More of Georgia's Territory | News | The Moscow Times
Tbilisi has not controlled South Ossetia or its fellow breakaway region of Abkhazia since fighting a brief war with Moscow in 2008. Both host Russian military bases,
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2. weaken Russia in their sphere. so how much control was Russia exerting on those counties after they gained their independence? maybe they realized they don't like the Russians or being their sphere and want in another. again your whole proposition relies on these countries having no political will of their own. Russia is the spurned abusive high school girl friend who gets upset when their boy toy gets serious with another girl. yeah the other girl has something to do with it but so does the boy.

3. like Syria recognizing the rebels/Kurds or Iraq etc etc? Or Russia with Chechnya. Or China with about half a dozen locations but thats neither here nor there for this conversation. its not a consistent standard.

4. what facts? We have expanded to Montenegro. Russia has expanded to S. Ossetia, Azbhazia, Crimea and Donetsk. who is winning that war of influence? and you are complaining about the corruption by America to get people to join then while ignoring occupation by Russia to get people to join them. they aren't equal responses. at worst we have thrown a new system into a messed up pot, bribery of officials, at best these nations go to a .usa website to check their bank account rather than a .rus one. again i can't believe that corruption and bribery is now being held up as the worst thing since Hitler while its been the modus operandi over there since the wall fell and no one batted an eye then. and imagine it this way. do you think the US and the UK would be friendly if after the Revolutionary War they kept giving us orders and expected us to operate in their sphere? Nope, thats what lead to the war of 1812. after that they largely left us and Canada alone and then we became friends. Russia has tried to maintain control over its old USSR territories; its not strange to imagine those countries resent it.
 
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#1,684
#1,684
For the record, since there may be some confusion, Montenegro (new NATO admittee) is not on Russia's border. Moldova, however, is near Russia's border, though it does not share a land border with Russia. Transnistria, in Moldova, is occupied by Russian forces though.
 
#1,685
#1,685
Russia has announced that three new divisions will be created in its Western military district.

"For every NATO soldier on Eastern flank, there will be roughly 5 to 10 new Russian troops"
 
#1,686
#1,686
LouderVol said:
1. yeah they could have annexed but instead they just occupy. Breakway Republic of South Ossetia Claims More of Georgia's Territory | News | The Moscow Times

2. weaken Russia in their sphere. so how much control was Russia exerting on those counties after they gained their independence? maybe they realized they don't like the Russians or being their sphere and want in another. again your whole proposition relies on these countries having no political will of their own. Russia is the spurned abusive high school girl friend who gets upset when their boy toy gets serious with another girl. yeah the other girl has something to do with it but so does the boy.

3. like Syria recognizing the rebels/Kurds or Iraq etc etc? Or Russia with Chechnya. Or China with about half a dozen locations but thats neither here nor there for this conversation. its not a consistent standard.

4. what facts? We have expanded to Montenegro. Russia has expanded to S. Ossetia, Azbhazia, Crimea and Donetsk. who is winning that war of influence? and you are complaining about the corruption by America to get people to join then while ignoring occupation by Russia to get people to join them. they aren't equal responses. at worst we have thrown a new system into a messed up pot, bribery of officials, at best these nations go to a .usa website to check their bank account rather than a .rus one. again i can't believe that corruption and bribery is now being held up as the worst thing since Hitler while its been the modus operandi over there since the wall fell and no one batted an eye then. and imagine it this way. do you think the US and the UK would be friendly if after the Revolutionary War they kept giving us orders and expected us to operate in their sphere? Nope, thats what lead to the war of 1812. after that they largely left us and Canada alone and then we became friends. Russia has tried to maintain control over its old USSR territories; its not strange to imagine those countries resent it.
Click to expand...

So, having a military base in South Ossetia or Abkhazia is occupying it? That makes my point even clearer if that is the definition we are going with...how many countries in East Europe does the US occupy then?

These regions broke away from Georgia. This was accepted by Russia, but not by the US. Because it didn't fit their geopolitical agenda of choking off Russia.

The reality is that Georgia invaded South Ossetia in order to take back this region, but again was propagated by the West that South Ossetia was grabbing up more land...
 
#1,687
#1,687
Door handle breaks as Putin inspects Russian military jeep - BBC News

Put in inspecting fine new Russian hardware...the general goes to open the door of their new jeep so pooootin can check it out...the dang door handle comes off in his hand and the general tosses it in the window. Then, general tries to open it from the inside and it won't open ...lol. Russian technology.
 
#1,693
#1,693
Rasputin_Vol said:
Who would want to join the EU or NATO right now? Sriously?
Click to expand...

I'm sure the Baltic's and Poland and other former Eastern European states are glad now that we have a resurgent, aggressive Russia. Or have you forgotten about the Little Green Men?
 
#1,694
#1,694
Pacer92 said:
I see you are falling in love with the word conspiracy and using it as defense when the facts support that the US is the aggressor...

Putin could've annexed any of E. Ukraine, South Ossetia, Abkhazia or even Georgia, but he hasn't...

If it's not abundantly clear that the US is in the regime change business then you are in total denial. The ex Georgian president, Saakashvili, was a US installed puppet after a US sponsored color revolution in 2003. His job was to provoke Russia, period. He did by invading the autonomous state of South Ossetia. Just a small portion of the Russian army embarrassed the Georgian army within days.....DAYS! Saakashvili is wanted in homeland to stand trial for being a war criminal, but instead, he works in Ukraine as the governor of Odessa....on the US payroll. Seems fitting.

Did Russia change the map by annexing South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia? Facts...

Secondly, after the US sponsored regime change in Kiev the people of E Ukraine did not recognize the new leaders of Ukraine. They were attacked by the Ukrainian army. These are facts...

Russia responded by supporting these people with military support(willingly admit), but to state it was an invasion of Ukraine would be false. As I stated before, we all know what a military invasion from Russia looks like.

There is no conspiracy that E Ukraine is still apart of Ukraine and it will stay that way unless US insistence plays their role...

The only conspiracy I see is the constant denial that the US is aggressively encroaching on the doorstep of Russia...
Click to expand...

I forgot if it was Abkhazia or South Ossetia but one of them is holding an (illegal) referendum to join Russia next year.
 
#1,695
#1,695
Rasputin_Vol said:
They were not massing troops there before.

I wonder what could have possibly been the catalyst for all of this all of a sudden?
Click to expand...

On February 27 2014, Russia massed Troops on the Ukraine Border saying it was an "exercise". On March 1st Russia's parliament approved Vladimir Putin's request to use force in Ukraine to "protect Russian interests" which we now know was an invasion of Ukraine.
 
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#1,699
#1,699
Probably wasn't harsh enough against Putin. I mean a western based company like Twitter is certainly controlled by our powers that be. lookout for the next ones to be a lot more negative towards Putin and therefore last longer on Twitter.
 
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