Triangle Split Over Cutcliffe Hire

#26
#26
This is possibly the most civil conversation I have seen in here.

You all are true gents. Any of you all going to Duke spring practice for S's and G's? I might make my way to Durham.
 
#27
#27
Thanks Biz.

Interestingly enough, I am sure I will start paying more attn to Duke football with Cut at the helm. I hope he does great, even though it is genetically impossible for me to cheer for Duke.
 
#28
#28
saunders.jpg

Barry Saunders

Living in Durham area, Barry Saunders played the race card during the Duke Lacrosse rape case and still showed no mercy on them when vindicated. This guy is as classless as they come to use race and socio-economical class in a divsive manner. He is your proto-typical angry black male.

Quote from Barry Sanders:

"Has anybody here seen my old friends Dave, Reade & Collin?
Can you tell me where they've gone?
They hired themselves a stripper
But they're the ones who got paid
I just looked around, and they were gone --
probably to an island they purchased with the $30 million they extorted from the city of Durham."
 
#29
#29
TennNC said:
I respect your opinions too but feel we've gone off track a bit.

Saunders' main point was not to disparage Cutcliffe (neither was mine - I was merely comparing what Cut did with what he was given compared to the same for Broadway) - he says that up front in the article. He was saying that Alleva had a great opportunity to hire an equally (in his mind) qualified candidate but used Broadway as a puppet to feign interest in a minority candidate. Do you disagree, even if you believe Cutcliffe's a smarter hire?
Alleva did the safe thing, not the bold thing, and Saunders was pissed not only that he didn't hire Broadway but moreso that he didn't give an explanation why he did NOT hire him. In his opinion, he used Broadway and Dorrell as puppets to feign interest in hiring a minority candidate. Do you disagree? And he's seen this same thing, over and over, and you're right, he's bitter, and he took it out on Alleva. So what? If you or I were in his position I'm sure we'd be pissed as well. Still bitter about Peyton not winning the Heisman? Now multiply that by 1,000 and we start to understand how he might feel.

Also, when has Duke football ever mattered? They hired Ted Roof, who had zero head coaching experience, so Broadway must've been viewed as a safer choice than Roof.

Look - Cutcliffe had zero head coaching experience when Ole Miss hired him. Ole Miss gave him his chance. If Broadway doesn't get this oppy at Duke, with all his ties and experience, where is he supposed to get it? When does he get his chance? What does it take?

Finally, on Saunders' rep and objectivity, I provided some evidence of that. I'd be open to change my mind if you provided some also.

Your floor.
Click to expand...

Please. I don't have to provide any additional examples of Saunders' rep and objectivity (though I could point out his strange lack of outrage that UNC chose Butch Davis without even a hint of consideration of a minority candidate). All I have to do is reference his current column. He makes my case right there. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Duke brought in three minority candidates to "feign interest". That's nothing more than a flagrantly presumptive attempt to attribute bad motives to good people by someone who has an axe to grind. Saunders is not omniscient (except maybe in his own mind) and cannot know the minds and hearts of the Duke search committee. So what does he do? He PRESUMES. His whole column is based on nothing more than a biased presumption. And then he uses that as a springboard to malign Joe Alleva and the search committee. There is ZERO objectivity in that. A journalist/columist who attributes wrong motives to good people in a public forum based on nothing but his own biased presumption has zero credibility. So much for his "rep."

The word I get from Duke contacts is that they were extremely impressed with the Dorrell interview. They weren't "feigning" anything. For a while, Dorrell was at the top of the list. But then Cutcliffe came along and simply blew away all the other candidates in the minds of the committee. They had no ulterior motive. Cut simply was the best interview with the best resume. The hire was a no-brainer.

I've already made my case as to why Cutcliffe was the better candidate. I stand on that argument. No need to reiterate. I have a very difficult time understanding why an "objective" person can't see why his background is far more relevant than the other candidates when compared with the search criteria Alleva stated up front. But, as you say, this is subjective. We all have our opinions.

I'll give you that Duke took risks with Carl Franks and Ted Roof, and neither worked out. My whole point is that they (thank God) learned their lesson and wisely went with a guy who's been there before at the D1A level and had some success. That substantially cuts down on the risk. Cut has a major college track record, and it's pretty darn good. Broadway's only D1A experience was as a position coach with teams that lost more often than not. Is that fair? Doesn't matter. Clearly, Broadway would have been a much riskier hire.

You say Duke football has never mattered. Does that mean you believe the only value of Duke football is to provide opportunities for minority coaches? If so, what does that say about your opinion of the capabilities of minority coaches?

It doesn't bother me that some people are disappointed with Duke's choice. What bothers me is when a biased person with a public forum and an axe to grind presumptively attributes bad motives to good people without a shred of evidence.
 
#30
#30
voldurham said:
Please. I don't have to provide any additional examples of Saunders' rep and objectivity (though I could point out his strange lack of outrage that UNC chose Butch Davis without even a hint of consideration of a minority candidate).
Click to expand...

His true disdain is his own class envy of a private university in the middle of downtown durham.
 
#31
#31
It's going to take a miracle, pretty much, to turn the Duke football team around. I'm not sure I'd want the HC job if I were part of any race.
 
#32
#32
Jasongivm6 said:
It's going to take a miracle, pretty much, to turn the Duke football team around. I'm not sure I'd want the HC job if I were part of any race.
Click to expand...

:post-4-1090547912:

Brief and to the point. And probably the smartest take on the whole situation.

But they're paying Cut $1.5 million a year. I would take the job myself for a couple of years if they would give it to me. My only coaching experience is as an assistant baseball coach, but the worst I could do is go 0-for-whatever like the last two coaches they've had. .:birgits_giggle:
 
#33
#33
brg72 said:
saunders.jpg

Barry Saunders

Living in Durham area, Barry Saunders played the race card during the Duke Lacrosse rape case and still showed no mercy on them when vindicated. This guy is as classless as they come to use race and socio-economical class in a divsive manner. He is your proto-typical angry black male.

Quote from Barry Sanders:

"Has anybody here seen my old friends Dave, Reade & Collin?
Can you tell me where they've gone?
They hired themselves a stripper
But they're the ones who got paid
I just looked around, and they were gone --
probably to an island they purchased with the $30 million they extorted from the city of Durham."
Click to expand...

If the city of Cary would like to give us $30 million to settle this, we'd gladly take it.
 
#34
#34
By the way do any of you guys make it to any of the Triangle Alumni Association outings for ball games?

Even though I go to college out here they take me in because I'm a fan.
 
#35
#35
Voldurham, I'm not quoting your post b/c it's getting long.

The interesting thing is, I used to read guys like Saunders and make the easy call that he's just playing the race card. It's easier to do that.

And then I actually put myself in his position and tried to understand what he was thinking. And I realize it's more complicated. Barry Saunders has nothing to gain from taking the stances he does. He makes no more money for selling papers. He's not running for office. So I actually trust that his opinions are heartfelt. (And still, I've read many columns where he calls out his own race when he believes they've done wrong - I'd venture a guess he despises the likes of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, but you shouldn't give him that credit if you want to keep this argument simple.)

I also think that Saunders was quick to react in this situation and is definitely angry from a long history of similar instances, and that Alleva took the brunt of it. Is that fair? Probably not. And neither is the fact that African-American candidates get fewer opportunities to coach than white ones. Barry is trying to do all he can to make the opportunities more balanced. His tactics were probably immature in this case (for one, he should've attended the press conference announcing Cutcliffe), but I can't question his motives. I'd probably fight the same fight if I were in his situation.

If you're interested, here's a good perspective from the Duke Basketball Report:

Duke Basketball Report - The unofficial home of Duke basketball fans and the Cameron Crazies
 
#36
#36
Business said:
By the way do any of you guys make it to any of the Triangle Alumni Association outings for ball games?

Even though I go to college out here they take me in because I'm a fan.
Click to expand...

Where are you in school?

Actually, I don't know of any outings, and I'm not an alum but am a lifelong fan, so hopefully they'll take me too.

Voldurham and I (despite our different perspectives on this issue) have talked about getting together to watch some. I'd love to. Where do they meet? I need some UT/SEC love, especially when conference ball starts. ACC fans just don't respect the SEC in hoops.
 
#38
#38
TennNC said:
If the city of Cary would like to give us $30 million to settle this, we'd gladly take it.
Click to expand...
The city of Cary did not deny these 3 students their civil rights.
It was your over zealous DA who played the race card to get re-elected and the durham pd who avoided due process. Now you get some sick journalist catering to a certain demographic to further divide and enhance racial tension. The city government of Durham deserves anything that comes their way legally. Now if we sit back and allow his to happen, we might as well move to Cuba or North Korea.
 
#39
#39
Your commentary on our city and government aren't helping anything. If you are offering solutions, we'll take them. Otherwise, please stay east of 147 and south of I-40.
 
#40
#40
TennNC and voldurham, I would like to echo Business' sentiments about your discussion. I can't recall seeing a debate so civil on the board.

I wish you guys could teach a class...
 
#41
#41
vader said:
TennNC and voldurham, I would like to echo Business' sentiments about your discussion. I can't recall seeing a debate so civil on the board.

I wish you guys could teach a class...
Click to expand...

It's a Hard Knock life vader, as Jay-Z would say. :)
 
#42
#42
No Business I haven't been to a UT event in the Triangle area. I lived in Chapel Hill from 2003 through this past summer. I now live closer to Greensboro on the other side of Burlington. But is there an active chapter in the Triangle?
 
#43
#43
vader said:
TennNC and voldurham, I would like to echo Business' sentiments about your discussion. I can't recall seeing a debate so civil on the board.

I wish you guys could teach a class...
Click to expand...

Much appreciated and flattered.

and belated congrats on little Neyland.
 
#44
#44
TennNC said:
Your commentary on our city and government aren't helping anything. If you are offering solutions, we'll take them. Otherwise, please stay east of 147 and south of I-40.
Click to expand...

Your city is mine as well since i pay taxes to Durham. I own property and pay property taxes in Durham county. I have every right to speak out to this government. I am pissed my tax dollars are going to salaries who can violate the our basic civil rights in the constitution. You go and pretend to be the solution by trying to get along. My solution is speaking out and maybe get enough attention for respectable and honest leaders elected rather than go with the status quo.

Saunders' commentary helping using race to divide people? It is a shame that we can not criticize a rogue city government that denied due process constitutional rights of 3 innocent people and used social status to rile the minority population in Durham. To not express your freedom of speech only empowers the government. You are not part of the solution but only part of the problem. Being passive and indifferent only will keep Durham in the state it is currently in.
 
#45
#45
Both schools won on this deal, Duke found someone who can win some games (not alot) but some. We lost a conservative OC - who was inconsistent. I think both schools won on this one.

Cut is a decent coach, not great, good or anything but decent, he's definitely better than what you have had in recent years. I guess he'll have you winning 4-5 games per year soon w/ an occasional 6-7 win season (b/c he will soften the schedule to the best of his abilities to get wins). He'll never win you a ACC Championship or anything like that. ACC don't have a whole lot of consistent programs so in some down years for some he'll still a win here and there.

I hope does great and gets an even better job. Good luck Coach Cut.
 
#46
#46
TennNC said:
Voldurham, I'm not quoting your post b/c it's getting long.

The interesting thing is, I used to read guys like Saunders and make the easy call that he's just playing the race card. It's easier to do that.

And then I actually put myself in his position and tried to understand what he was thinking. And I realize it's more complicated. Barry Saunders has nothing to gain from taking the stances he does. He makes no more money for selling papers. He's not running for office. So I actually trust that his opinions are heartfelt. (And still, I've read many columns where he calls out his own race when he believes they've done wrong - I'd venture a guess he despises the likes of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, but you shouldn't give him that credit if you want to keep this argument simple.)

I also think that Saunders was quick to react in this situation and is definitely angry from a long history of similar instances, and that Alleva took the brunt of it. Is that fair? Probably not. And neither is the fact that African-American candidates get fewer opportunities to coach than white ones. Barry is trying to do all he can to make the opportunities more balanced. His tactics were probably immature in this case (for one, he should've attended the press conference announcing Cutcliffe), but I can't question his motives. I'd probably fight the same fight if I were in his situation.

If you're interested, here's a good perspective from the Duke Basketball Report:

Duke Basketball Report - The unofficial home of Duke basketball fans and the Cameron Crazies
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Interesting read.

I understand that we all have things we are passionate about. Saunders seems to have that passion, and that's a good thing. And I have no doubt his cause is just. I just wish, as you say, he would be more objective and mature as he goes about championing his cause. My opinion - which still hasn't changed despite many re-readings of his column - is that he used presumptive personal opinion to champion his cause in a way that was bitter and devisive and which maligned the integrity of those whose motives he can't possibly know but can only guess at. His column lacked even a minimum standard of objectivity. I just don't think that's a very responsible (or effective) way to champion a cause no matter how just the cause might be.

I really don't have any other points to make. I think I've already crossed over into repeating myself. My wife says I'm world-class when it comes to being verbose:unsure:

There's just one more thing I'd like to add: I know Joe Alleva personally. I don't know if Barry Saunders has ever met the man. If so, maybe he has a different impression from mine. I first met JA when he coached my son's youth-league baseball team. I've met his family, shared meals with him in his home, talked with him at countless practices and games, even served as a sort of half-arsed assistant for the team for a time. There are two things I would offer:

1. He is absolutely the best I've ever seen at working with youngsters in competitive sports - a truly amazing role model.
2. I don't believe he's the kind of man who would deliberately interview a minority candidate just to "feign interest".

I appreciate that you identify with Saunders and others who might be frustrated by the low number of minority coaches (and rightly so) and I admire your capacity to argue persuasively in his behalf. :hi:

I just believe that in this instance Duke chose the coach that made the most sense for them at this juncture of Duke football history. I see no evidence whatsoever that race had anything to do with it.

If I've been offensive in any of my remarks, I apologize.
 
#47
#47
voldurham said:
Thanks for the link. Interesting read.

he used presumptive personal opinion to champion his cause in a way that was bitter and devisive and which maligned the integrity of those whose motives he can't possibly know but can only guess at. His column lacked even a minimum standard of objectivity. I just don't think that's a very responsible (or effective) way to champion a cause no matter how just the cause might be.



If I've been offensive in any of my remarks, I apologize.
Click to expand...

You have every right to opinion and no apology is needed for expressing your 1st amendment speech. I been told to stay in Cary but being a property and business owner in Durham among my other profession. I will never allow someone what i can and can not say.

I agree with you 100 percent. I think Saunders was irresponsible and we should speak out against his opinion. His argument was to hire on the basis of color only and that is discrimination in itself. Saunders should provide a candidate of any color and compare credentials and not limited to skin color. It was a right hire. If it were Dennis Green, i would prefer Dennis Green in a heart beat over Cut. Carl Dorrell is just avg at best. Cut is the more qualified candidate. Duke made the better hire.

Those who feel we should not disagree or we are stirring the pot will make a fine role model citizen of Cuba.
 
#48
#48
Voldurham, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for the respectful debate.

Brg72, you don't need to tell anyone you have freedom of speech (pretty sure everyone on here knows that), but I will tell you others also have the freedom to ignore your criticisms (referring to the lacrosse case and subsequent lawsuits, not Saunders' column). If you're offering solutions to these lawsuits and all of our local governmental problems, this taxpayer and voter will gladly listen.

And, what do you know? I speak Spanish and love Cuban food, so I guess I'm prepared for the impending transformation.
 
#49
#49
I'm just going to come out and say it.

This thread should be saved and as Vader said used for educational services to teach how to debate with knowledge and above anything else class.
 
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