Trade Wars and Tariffs

#7,278
#7,278
Orangeburst said:
There are still a hundred billion of tariffs in effect that are legal under prior admins, but it takes targetting and not a blanket. Horrible execution, but as stated, if he was just trying to get better trade deals.

I dont think a great nation can be sustainable with $1T trade defictis,without a vibrant mfg sector, and many of these nations are gaming us in mfg. Otherwise, you get a class that demand $25 hour burger wages,
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I agree with your first paragraph RE horrible execution. And the prior tariffs largely followed procedure I’m pretty sure and were not just unilaterally and arbitrary applied. I’m guessing the penguins of Heard and Macdonald islands still have no idea what they did to draw Trump’s ire.

I think your second paragraph just really screams the usual protectionist rhetoric. We’re never going to be able to compete with the labor rates in SE Asia for textile products for example. And we offshored our fabs to Taiwan quite a while back due to labor costs and NIMBY beliefs. Water fabs are nasty and used to be REALLY nasty and the EPA helped there also in making the US non competitive.

One area we might find common ground is say as an example the Chinese government flooding the market with cheap steel subsidized by the government. I’m fine with by and large going after several sectors of Chinese manufacturing. However we have a process via which to do that.

And people without skills demanding $25 an hour wage is fine by me it’s how the rest of us respond that matters. They might get it in CA. Living in TX this isn’t something I’m at all worried about nor should you in TN. Hey each state has their own freedom to vote themselves into bankruptcy!
 
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#7,279
#7,279
volfanhill said:
If our solution to jobs is to prevent competition then we have our heads up our ass
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the American consumer needs more choices..looking at anything, the number of choices is mind numbing.

there is rules based trade, and then there is China with espionage and industry subsidies.


China cars would wipe out the Big 2-3, steel, and all sorts of mfg.
Like I said you cant be a great power if you cant make anything.
Selling out to a nation that has stolen trillions of just IP isnt wise.
 
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#7,280
#7,280
volfanhill said:
If our solution to jobs is to prevent competition then we have our heads up our ass
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The plain fact is many industry sectors have gone forever and simply are not coming back. There are likely anecdotal examples of textile products still manufactured in the US however the industry has largely left the nation it simply cannot compete on labor rates.

Automotive parts is another one largely gone however in that case it didn’t completely travel far since a big chunk come from Mexico and Canada. Again, labor costs.
 
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#7,281
#7,281
Orangeburst said:
the American consumer needs more choices..looking at anything, the number of choices is mind numbing.

there is rules based trade, and then there is China with espionage and industry subsidies.


China cars would wipe out the Big 2-3, steel, and all sorts of mfg.
Like I said you cant be a great power if you cant make anything.
Selling out to a nation that has stolen trillions of just IP isnt wise.
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Can't make great things? Looks like they make great EV's. We are a consumer based economy and have been for quite some time
 
#7,282
#7,282
the $165B is really irrelevent. sounds like a lot but only .5% of the economy, if that is an annualized, I would not mind it if it was Congressionally manded to pay debt.
Paying down debt would probably pay for itself in several ways to improve our lives
 
#7,283
#7,283
volfanhill said:
Can't make great things? Looks like they make great EV's. We are a consumer based economy and have been for quite some time
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The old sleight about SE Asian mfg just doesn’t hold true anymore in a global economy. The saying used to be cheap Chinese crap. Well that cheap stuff still does exist however so does a bunch of world class manufacturing capacity across all of Asia. In the current global supply chain economy you have mfgrs building product to a design specification. That spec and the industry standard processes referenced determine the quality of the product today not where it was manufactured
 
#7,286
#7,286
their EVs cost like half, and are tech cutting. no idea about reliability, but Ford and Chevy are not breaking any records. The car industry has been thrown through the ringer with mpg efficiency and enviro mandates. More complex, less relaible. Surprised they are even still around.

There is the invisible hand that is more concerning to me than tariffs. What was Biden mandate for MGP standards? Heck, they were trying to kill the ICvehicle industry.
 
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#7,290
#7,290
The U.S. government subsidizes manufacturing with over $181 billion annually in direct corporate welfare, heavily accelerated by recent legislation like the CHIPS and Science Act, which provides $52.7 billion for semiconductor manufacturing alone. These subsidies, including tax credits, are designed to boost domestic production and counter global competition. [1, 2, 3]
Key Manufacturing Subsidy Areas
  • CHIPS and Science Act: Authorized ~$280 billion, with $39 billion in direct grants for semiconductor manufacturing and 25% investment tax credits for equipment.
  • Industrial Policy & Infrastructure: The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law directs over $1 trillion into projects (broadband, rail, EV chargers) that indirectly subsidize related manufacturing.
  • Energy & Advanced Manufacturing: The Department of Energy provides millions in incentives for smart manufacturing and specialized tech.
  • Regional/State Incentives: Specialized programs like the State Trade Expansion Program (STEP) and Manufacturing USA institutes support smaller firms and workforce training.
  • Top Recipients: Historically, companies like Boeing, Intel, Ford, and GM have received billions in government support. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
China heavily subsidizes its manufacturing sector, with total industrial support estimated at over 1.7% of its GDP—more than three to four times higher than in large EU/OECD countries. These subsidies focus on key sectors like electric vehicles (EVs), semiconductors, and green technology, using cash grants, tax breaks, cheap land, and below-market loans to secure market dominance. [1, 2, 3]
Key Aspects of Chinese Manufacturing Subsidies (2026 Context)
  • Scale and Scope: Studies suggest Chinese industrial subsidies amounted to at least EUR 221 billion (approx. USD 248 billion) in 2019, with the intensity growing for strategic sectors.
  • Sector Focus: The highest subsidies are directed toward high-tech manufacturing, including EVs (e.g., BYD receiving significant support), semiconductors, and clean energy.
  • Types of Support: Beyond direct cash payments, firms benefit from below-market borrowing, cheap raw materials, and preferential tax rates, often provided by local governments.
  • Market Impact: These subsidies often lead to overcapacity, with manufacturers exporting excess goods at low costs, creating significant trade tensions and concerns about market distortion.
  • Targeted Industries: For instance, from 2009 to 2023, the EV industry received roughly $230 billion in state
Heck, we never had free trade.
 
#7,291
#7,291
NorthDallas40 said:
The plain fact is many industry sectors have gone forever and simply are not coming back. There are likely anecdotal examples of textile products still manufactured in the US however the industry has largely left the nation it simply cannot compete on labor rates.

Automotive parts is another one largely gone however in that case it didn’t completely travel far since a big chunk come from Mexico and Canada. Again, labor costs.
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How is Canada’s labor cheaper?
 
#7,292
#7,292
hog88 said:
How is Canada’s labor cheaper?
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You tell me. A quick Google ask returned this.

Yes, labor costs are generally cheaper in Canada than in the U.S., making Canada a more affordable location for business operations. This advantage is driven by lower overall salaries, lower benefit costs due to publicly funded healthcare, and a favorable exchange rate, despite higher average income taxes for employees. [1, 2]
 
#7,293
#7,293
NorthDallas40 said:
You tell me. A quick Google ask returned this.

Yes, labor costs are generally cheaper in Canada than in the U.S., making Canada a more affordable location for business operations. This advantage is driven by lower overall salaries, lower benefit costs due to publicly funded healthcare, and a favorable exchange rate, despite higher average income taxes for employees. [1, 2]
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I just don’t think that’s accurate. The company that builds our truck bodies is in Canada and they are moving to OH within the next couple of years. I think that labor was cheaper in Canada but I don’t think that’s the case anymore
 
#7,294
#7,294
hog88 said:
I just don’t think that’s accurate. The company that builds our truck bodies is in Canada and they are moving to OH within the next couple of years. I think that labor was cheaper in Canada but I don’t think that’s the case anymore
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Ok. Well you can go type it into a search engine and reach out to each of the many links stating that yes overall Canada has cheaper labor costs than the US and tell them they’re FOS? 🤷‍♂️
 
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