Trade Wars and Tariffs

#5,351
#5,351
Thunder Good-Oil said:
You’re just simply applying the argument that domestic corporate taxes are paid for by consumers. It’s lazy. Even if it were accurate, the tariffs that you claim are 100% paid for by US consumers are revenue to the US government. Net zero. Whereas the $120B trade deficit is sucking wealth right out of the US.
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What’s lazy is continually misrepresenting trade deficits and imbalances. And yeah corporate taxes are passed on to the cosumer and large. Just like tariffs. Which you’ve once again demonstrated a lack of understand on where they are applied and who pays them.

And the bolded is just patently stupid. We WaNt MOaR tAxEs!! 😂🤡
 
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#5,352
#5,352
Thunder Good-Oil said:
They’re much wealthier than you realize and their economy is quickly growing. Their millionaires can afford a lot of what we produce.

1-10 trade imbalance. They can buy much more from us. Their middle class can buy Fords. Their politburo can buy Teslas.
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Lol, so you think the US should base it's trade policy on the purchasing power of the ~19,400 millionaires who live in Vietnam, and not the the purchasing power oft the 100,380,600, non-millionaires?

This is really what you believe?

Side note, "middle class" in Vietnam has an annual income of $7,000 to $18,000.
 
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#5,353
#5,353
Thunder Good-Oil said:
They’re much wealthier than you realize and their economy is quickly growing. Their millionaires can afford a lot of what we produce.

1-10 trade imbalance. They can buy much more from us. Their middle class can buy Fords. Their politburo can buy Teslas.
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I don't think they are wealthier than I think they are.

www.thevietnamese.org

The Middle-Class Illusion in Vietnam

When individuals of higher social status mistakenly view themselves as being part of the middle class.
www.thevietnamese.org www.thevietnamese.org

"Considering both inflation and annual income increases, both HILL ASEAN and Cimigo present a relatively similar view of the situation on the ground. According to Vietnam’s income structure, a household earning a median total income between US$7,000 and US$8,000 yearly is considered middle-class."

that isn't buying a modern made for America ford. at least not at anywhere close to American prices.

Vietnam has 19,400 millionaires.
the US has 23,800,000 millionaires.

our millionaires would be almost 1/4th of their entire population.

it is a 1:1226 ratio of millionaires.

1-10 trade "imbalance" doesn't seem off.

willing to bet we are going to see less trade with Vietnam due to this. the "imbalance" may go down, but we will see fewer dollars overall.
 
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#5,354
#5,354
Lighthizer is brilliant and the new guy is his protégé. Are we supposed to suck it up and ignore the 1-10 trade imbalance with the SRV? One of our largest trade partners. Maybe Trump isn’t the idiot that you 3 claim him to be.

BTW, how’s that southern border problem working out for you?

ustr.gov

Leadership

Many of USTR's senior officials are lawyers and economists with extensive backgrounds in trade law. The senior staff includes about 30 key officials appointed by the U.S. Trade Representative who supervise trade negotiations, monitor trade disputes, enforce laws, and keep a constant flow of...
ustr.gov ustr.gov

Ambassador Jamieson Greer was confirmed by the U.S. Senate as the 20th United States Trade Representative on February 27, 2025. As a key member of President Trump’s cabinet, Ambassador Greer has made it a priority to put America First on trade by combating unfair foreign trade practices, expanding market access for Made in America products, and ensuring the United States has balance and reciprocity in its trading relationships.

Ambassador Greer returns to USTR after previously serving as Chief of Staff to Ambassador Robert Lighthizer during President Trump’s first term.
 
#5,355
#5,355
LouderVol said:
I don't think they are wealthier than I think they are.

www.thevietnamese.org

The Middle-Class Illusion in Vietnam

When individuals of higher social status mistakenly view themselves as being part of the middle class.
www.thevietnamese.org www.thevietnamese.org

"Considering both inflation and annual income increases, both HILL ASEAN and Cimigo present a relatively similar view of the situation on the ground. According to Vietnam’s income structure, a household earning a median total income between US$7,000 and US$8,000 yearly is considered middle-class."

that isn't buying a modern made for America ford. at least not at anywhere close to American prices.

Vietnam has 19,400 millionaires.
the US has 23,800,000 millionaires.

our millionaires would be almost 1/4th of their entire population.

it is a 1:1226 ratio of millionaires.

1-10 trade "imbalance" doesn't seem off.

willing to bet we are going to see less trade with Vietnam due to this. the "imbalance" may go down, but we will see fewer dollars overall.
Click to expand...

Then the workers can buy bicycles, corn, and rice from us now. As their economy grows they can close the income gap between them and their politburo elites that can already buy the Teslas and ultimately buy more valuable US imports.

I guess since we’re so rich, we can afford to pay these trickle down tariffs. You can’t have it both ways. Our millionaires should be able to afford sending 20% to the treasury if that’s the way you 3 want to frame the economics of global trade.

But aren’t our millionaires EXPLOITING the $20/day SRV manufacturing workers?

A $120B trade deficit isn’t a good thing when the crap we’re buying will be dumped in our landfills within 5 years. Pay for more of it with what our farmers make and upstream energy companies pump and dig instead of cash.
 
#5,356
#5,356
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Then the workers can buy bicycles, corn, and rice from us now. As their economy grows they can close the income gap between them and their politburo elites that can already buy the Teslas and ultimately buy more valuable US imports.

I guess since we’re so rich, we can afford to pay these trickle down tariffs. You can’t have it both ways. Our millionaires should be able to afford sending 20% to the treasury if that’s the way you 3 want to frame the economics of global trade.

But aren’t our millionaires EXPLOITING the $20/day SRV manufacturing workers?

A $120B trade deficit isn’t a good thing when the crap we’re buying will be dumped in our landfills within 5 years. Pay for more of it with what our farmers make and upstream energy companies pump and dig instead of cash.
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dude you were the one who brought up their millionaires. you were acting like their relatively few millionaires were going to offset the entire trade "imbalance". there aren't enough millionaires anywhere to offset full country's worth of buying power. and that is assuming the millionaires are starting at 0 and will spend their full net worth. which of course is not what is going on.

they are already buying that stuff. Food is our chief export to Vietnam. how is increasing the prices they pay going to lead to more US goods being sold?

and you do realize that our entire economy isn't solely tied up in our trade with Vietnam right? it makes sense that poorer nations are going to have a "negative imbalance" with us, because we have a "positive imbalance" with the richer nations. its basic economics, buy low, sell high.
 
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#5,357
#5,357
LouderVol said:
dude you were the one who brought up their millionaires. you were acting like their relatively few millionaires were going to offset the entire trade "imbalance". there aren't enough millionaires anywhere to offset full country's worth of buying power. and that is assuming the millionaires are starting at 0 and will spend their full net worth. which of course is not what is going on.

they are already buying that stuff. Food is our chief export to Vietnam. how is increasing the prices they pay going to lead to more US goods being sold?

and you do realize that our entire economy isn't solely tied up in our trade with Vietnam right? it makes sense that poorer nations are going to have a "negative imbalance" with us, because we have a "positive imbalance" with the richer nations. its basic economics, buy low, sell high.
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I wasn’t acting like the “entire” trade imbalance was going to be offset. I was pointing out that the country isn’t nearly as poor as it’s being portrayed. They’re lower middle class. Their GDP probably catches up with Israel’s in a few years if they continue to have access to US consumers.

They aren’t paying more. There are no tariffs on what we export to them.

When there’s a 1-10 trade imbalance of $120B with just one country, imposing a tariff on the imports is the correct approach. Especially when we’re buying disposable consumer items (clothes and electronics) from them and the good stuff (machinery) is hurting our critical industries.

Trump’s administration has negotiated unrestricted access to their markets, put a 20% tariff ($25-30 billion) that generates revenue for the treasury, and a 40% tariff to prevent China from dodging the rules.

It’s bad policy to continue being so charitable to a communist country. 1-10.
 
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#5,360
#5,360
Thunder Good-Oil said:
I wasn’t acting like the “entire” trade imbalance was going to be offset. I was pointing out that the country isn’t nearly as poor as it’s being portrayed. They’re lower middle class. Their GDP probably catches up with Israel’s in a few years if they continue to have access to US consumers.

They aren’t paying more. There are no tariffs on what we export to them.

When there’s a 1-10 trade imbalance of $120B with just one country, imposing a tariff on the imports is the correct approach. Especially when we’re buying disposable consumer items (clothes and electronics) from them and the good stuff (machinery) is hurting our critical industries.

Trump’s administration has negotiated unrestricted access to their markets, put a 20% tariff ($25-30 billion) that generates revenue for the treasury, and a 40% tariff to prevent China from dodging the rules.

It’s bad policy to continue being so charitable to a communist country. 1-10.
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its not charity. its business.

vietnam's population is over 100 million.
Israel's population is under 10 million.

there is less wealth, less concentrated in Vietnam. with so much of their wealth tied up in just surviving they are never going to offset that imbalance.

and you would have a much better argument if you were able to give some ratio that would be acceptable to you. or to give some type of metrics that establishes what is good based on various economic issues. but you can't. you just brainlessly parrot a party line.
 
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#5,361
#5,361
Surviving? Vietnam is wealthier than nearly 100 countries.

It’s not parroting a party line to recognize that a 1-10 trade imbalance is bad business. Especially with one of your top 10-15 trading partners.
 
#5,362
#5,362
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Surviving? Vietnam is wealthier than nearly 100 countries.

It’s not parroting a party line to recognize that a 1-10 trade imbalance is bad business. Especially with one of your top 10-15 trading partners.
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not per capita its not. Vietnam is 118 of 188 per capita. Iraq has a higher GDP per capita than Vietnam. Only about 5 of the countries poorer per capita have as many people as Vietnam. (guessing so I could be off on a few's population)

even looking at pure GDP being richer than 100 other countries is a meaningless stat. congrats on being richer than Kazakhstan. clearly that means they need to spend more money in the US, just because Thunder says so.

you can't just look at the total number and assume it tells you how much that country can spend. they spend a bigger proportion of their economy just surviving. that means they don't have the money to spend on importing US goods, especially if they are paying tariff prices.

its basic economics, prices go up, demand generally goes down. doesn't matter what causes the price to go up, that is going to put negative pressure on demand.
 
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#5,363
#5,363
LouderVol said:
not per capita its not. Vietnam is 118 of 188 per capita. Iraq has a higher GDP per capita than Vietnam. Only about 5 of the countries poorer per capita have as many people as Vietnam. (guessing so I could be off on a few's population)

even looking at pure GDP being richer than 100 other countries is a meaningless stat. congrats on being richer than Kazakhstan. clearly that means they need to spend more money in the US, just because Thunder says so.

you can't just look at the total number and assume it tells you how much that country can spend. they spend a bigger proportion of their economy just surviving. that means they don't have the money to spend on importing US goods, especially if they are paying tariff prices.

its basic economics, prices go up, demand generally goes down. doesn't matter what causes the price to go up, that is going to put negative pressure on demand.
Click to expand...

They import over 90% of what they export. They have the money to buy US goods. Especially NG.

I was measuring their economy per capita, not the total number.

I don’t think that you’re understanding the Communist angle. They’re very much a proxy for China, therefore the 40%.

There’s a 1-10 trade imbalance, therefore their tariff is 20% instead of the 10% baseline. If they’d import more US goods they could earn the lower 10% standard. If they don’t, they’ll have to deal with 20%. It’s not that hard to understand that a $120B trade deficit is bad business.
 
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#5,367
#5,367
#5,368
#5,368
Thunder Good-Oil said:
The announced rates are getting the trading partners to the negotiating table. Leveraging access to US markets is excellent strategy. It appears that every one of them is ready to strike deals that are beneficial to the US.
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Pace yourself and be sure to stretch. You’re going to be carrying a bigly yuge amount of Trump’s trade deal stupidity water 😂
 
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#5,371
#5,371
Thunder Good-Oil said:
The announced rates are getting the trading partners to the negotiating table. Leveraging access to US markets is excellent strategy. It appears that every one of them is ready to strike deals that are beneficial to the US.
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Trump has < 2 more days to wrap up 90 deals. Should we assume that tomorrow will be a busy news day?
 
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#5,373
#5,373
Velo Vol said:
The stupidity will continue until Republicans start complaining (or the market crashes).

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Amazing that the party of "manly men" seems to be scared sh*tless of the dreaded mean tweet. It's not like any of them from a competitive district has a chance at reelection.
 
#5,375
#5,375
DinkinFlicka said:
What's interesting is that market response is more diminished with every feint.

It's as though the global economy is taking this less seriously as it continues to go on.
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The markets are much more sophisticated than El Donaldo. They rightly surmise was is likely to happen next.
 
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