Top Basketball Programs

#1
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MikeHamiltonFan

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#1
Another thread discussion started the creation of this one. What is your criteria for "top basketball program"?
Who would you put in that group?
Counting down the most prestigious programs since 1984-85 - Men's College Basketball - ESPN

ESPNU used regular season victories, All Americans etc in a formula they discussed above.

They finished with
1. Duke
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina

I do not think a sane person would quibble with any of these programs. That means that being a top program is all about consistent results, it is certainly not about basketball attendance. Attendance = cash and with that money you should be able to get a good to great coach and when attendance dips it is time to fire your coach so there is some relationship but it is minimal.

I do not think TN is one of the top programs.

If you have had less than 1 top 10 recruiting class in a decade, you are not a top program (top players).

If you have had less than one NBA player who started consistenly in the last decade you are not a top program (top players).

If you have had 1 or less All American on your team in the last decade you are not a top program (top players).

If you have never gone to the Elite 8 in the history of your school, it is not a top program, but I suppose you could make this Final 4 and it would still hold.
 
#2
#2
MikeHamiltonFan said:
Another thread discussion started the creation of this one. What is your criteria for "top basketball program"?
Who would you put in that group?
Counting down the most prestigious programs since 1984-85 - Men's College Basketball - ESPN

ESPNU used regular season victories, All Americans etc in a formula they discussed above.

They finished with
1. Duke
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina

I do not think a sane person would quibble with any of these programs. That means that being a top program is all about consistent results, it is certainly not about basketball attendance. Attendance = cash and with that money you should be able to get a good to great coach and when attendance dips it is time to fire your coach so there is some relationship but it is minimal.

I do not think TN is one of the top programs.

If you have had less than 1 top 10 recruiting class in a decade, you are not a top program (top players).

If you have had less than one NBA player who started consistenly in the last decade you are not a top program (top players).

If you have had 1 or less All American on your team in the last decade you are not a top program (top players).

If you have never gone to the Elite 8 in the history of your school, it is not a top program, but I suppose you could make this Final 4 and it would still hold.
Click to expand...

You are way off base on attendance. How many of those three schools don't fill it up for every game. Fan support is huge for any program and certainly helps recruiting and wins---ever hear of home court advantage? There is none without fan support.
 
#3
#3
BasketvolsFan said:
You are way off base on attendance. How many of those three schools don't fill it up for every game. Fan support is huge for any program and certainly helps recruiting and wins---ever hear of home court advantage? There is none without fan support.
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BVF,
I actually thought we would agree on this. What I mean is that TN being top 5 in tickets sold does not an elite program make.

Duke has great fan support, but they will never be close to the attendance we have.

I would be interested in seeing who you list as "top" programs.

I think Calhoun made UConn top and Boeheim made Syracuse top and I would include both as top programs with the original 3 and would be interested to see another 5 you would include there.
 
#4
#4
Get a life or a job whichever will prevent you from starting more worhtless vol bashing threads!!!! F-A-I-L T-H-R-E-A-D!
 
#5
#5
This is from last year, but is a list of colleges with multiple players in the NBA.

UCLA—12

Duke—10

Arizona—9

UConn—9

Kansas—9

Florida—9

UNC—8

Texas—7

Kentucky—7

Georgia Tech—6

LSU—6

Michigan State—5

Memphis—5

Syracuse—4

Wake Forest—4

Ohio State—4

California—4

Maryland—4

Villanova—4

DePaul—4

Stanford—4

Georgetown—3

Arkansas—3

Illinois—3

Washington—3

Marquette—3

Alabama—3

Iowa—3

Purdue—3

Notre Dame—3

Boston College—3

Oklahoma State—3

Minnesota—3

Oregon—3

Gonzaga—3

Texas A&M—3

Indiana—3

Nevada—3
 
#6
#6
Smokeybluetick said:
Get a life or a job whichever will prevent you from starting more worhtless vol bashing threads!!!! F-A-I-L T-H-R-E-A-D!
Click to expand...

hahaha. It is kind of funny to be considered a Vol basher. I hope that Bruce Pearl makes our basketball program a "top" program. I think we have top level facilities and attendance, but we need players in the NBA and most of all NCAA tournament success. All Americans etc will be nice.

I think if he stays, by 2015 Bruce could be well on his way to making TN a top program.
 
#7
#7
duke,north carolina,flordia,uconn,kansas and memphis will always have more wins because the weak conference
 
#9
#9
bosgap said:
duke,north carolina,flordia,uconn,kansas and memphis will always have more wins because the weak conference
Click to expand...

Yeah, the ACC and BIG 12 are downright horrible and FLORDIA (whoever the hell that is, assuming UF) always dominates the SEC.

You hit every branch on the way down didn't you?
 
#10
#10
HF,
Care to respond to my questions?

I would say UK, Arizona, UCLA, Syracuse, UConn...

Below that group of "top" programs, there is a second tier that is maybe Texas, maybe UF (not all time great, talking right now) etc.

Care to add your piece there?
 
#11
#11
MikeHamiltonFan said:
HF,
Care to respond to my questions?

I would say UK, Arizona, UCLA, Syracuse, UConn...

Below that group of "top" programs, there is a second tier that is maybe Texas, maybe UF (not all time great, talking right now) etc.

Care to add your piece there?
Click to expand...

Well, I know that ESPN started at 1985, but I'm not really on board with that. The idea of a second tier is something I have always used myself, but kind of expanded.

There are 10 teams (IMO) that fill the quota for the top tier. (in no particular order)

Kansas
Kentucky
North Carolina
Duke
UCLA
Indiana (not for awhile, but I believe will be back soon)
UConn
Arizona
Louisville
Syracuse/Mich St/UNLV/G-town/NC State/Take your pick

Using a criteria such as ESPN used, some rotation of these teams will be established. After that you have second tier, which is very wide and diverse.

There are a ton of teams out there with one national title (or two. see Florida), but perhaps not the sustained success over several decades. Some teams without a title period.

Syracuse
G-Town
UNLV
Villanova
Ohio St
Michigan
Marquette
Florida
Texas
Michigan St

Then you also have teams that fall in the "mid-major" bracket, that deserve recongnition.

Western Kentucky - 30 conference tourney titles
28 conference season titles


Gonzaga- Just now getting started, but has 11 straight conference titles and 4 sweet sixteens this decade.


We could go on and on about schools in this tier, and why they deserve what they do.


The biggest thing for me, when ranking programs or making such a list, is that you have to judge them accordingly within the context to which they belong.

In other words, you can't judge mid major schools that absolutely max out their abilities above and beyond, doing the best they can, against elite D1 one schools with their money, facilities, and blue blood history.


In the case of Tennessee (and all schools that aspire to make the jump to elite status), I believe you have to judge them as a school in a major D1 conference. Someone can say that its a football conference and football school, and therefore should not be held to the same standard, but thats false. As a university it has all the same opportunities with respect to money, facilities, etc., that other schools do.

Which brings everything back to full circle, and why the constant debate about Pearl rages in all of these threads.
 
#12
#12
bosgap said:
duke,north carolina,flordia,uconn,kansas and memphis will always have more wins because the weak conference
Click to expand...

You just named teams from basically every major BB conference. Are the Pac and Big 10 the best in your opinion?
 
#13
#13
I appreciate the response.

Bruce for the first time has the kind of players who can succeed in the NBA. Pre 64 field TN had Ernie and Bernie, post they had Allan Houston as the only player on a team whose coaching sucked (his dad) and then Green and Buzz had a couple guys (Haislip, V Yarbarough) who may make a roster but are not stars by any stretch.

Tobias Harris and Scotty Hopson should both be in the NBA and should be decent players there (by decent I do not mean regular starters, I mean a bit better than Haislip and VY). If they are not, it is an indictment of Bruce Pearl. I think Ware may also end up there.

Think about this, ask anyone who has been the best player Bruce Pearl had? A guy who UK did not offer a scholarship to, who has done well in Turkey, never made an NBA roster and was cut from Spanish ball.

Wayne Chism and Tyler Smith should make NBA rosters. If they do not it is at least in part on CBP. Tyler is a tweener, but he should be in the NBA. Wayne has asthma but he should be there.

I think if Bruce gets to the Final Four or even an Elite 8 this year, by 2012 he could have TN in that second tier.

The fight has been that people who hate CBP say that he is paid as a top coach, and we have top 5 tickets sold, so we should compare ourselves in results each year to those top programs.

Some like me, think that until we get top players in, we are kidding ourselves when just because of attendance and facilities we are comparing ourselves to these top programs.
 
#14
#14
MikeHamiltonFan said:
HF,
Care to respond to my questions?

I would say UK, Arizona, UCLA, Syracuse, UConn...

Below that group of "top" programs, there is a second tier that is maybe Texas, maybe UF (not all time great, talking right now) etc.

Care to add your piece there?
Click to expand...

You do not have North Carolina on your list. Or Kansas. Or Duke. Or Michigan St. Louisville should get some consideration. You think Arizona belongs in "Tier 1" above any of those names?
 
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#16
#16
cotton said:
You do not have North Carolina on your list. Or Kansas. Or Duke. Or Michigan St. Louisville should get some consideration. You think Arizona belongs in "Tier 1" above any of those names?
Click to expand...

Sorry North Carolina, Kansas and Duke are the original 3 I mentioned in the OP as being a part of any sane group.

Michigan State I agree is VERY close to the top 10 group, maybe needs to be the 10th.

If Pitino left Louisville I am not sure they would remain a top program.

Of programs that could go down like Tarkless UNLV did, I think Louisville without Pitino, Syracuse without Boeheim and UConn without Calhoun could all take significant steps back and no longer be regularly recruiting as well or going as deep in the tournament.
 
#17
#17
MikeHamiltonFan said:
Sorry North Carolina, Kansas and Duke are the original 3 I mentioned in the OP as being a part of any sane group.

Michigan State I agree is VERY close to the top 10 group, maybe needs to be the 10th.

If Pitino left Louisville I am not sure they would remain a top program.

Of programs that could go down like Tarkless UNLV did, I think Louisville without Pitino, Syracuse without Boeheim and UConn without Calhoun could all take significant steps back and no longer be regularly recruiting as well or going as deep in the tournament.
Click to expand...

MSU has a better resume than Arizona.

Louisville was a national power long before Pitino was wearing red.
 
#20
#20
I'm amazed at the number of people who keep asking as if Vegas is an elite program. How many NCAA Tournament games did they win from '90-'91 to '05-'06?
 
#21
#21
hatvol96 said:
Syracuse was really good long before Boeheim took over.
Click to expand...

I have a hard time believing UConn won't come up with a suitable replacement for Calhoun once he retires as well. I simply used the example with which I am most familiar.

Hardwood_fanatic said:
Two words. "The Crum"
Click to expand...

Evidence that they have been willing and able to replace top notch coaches in the past suggests they might be able to do it in the future, as well.
 
#22
#22
Cotton would you make a list of top programs. I did not know that Louisville was as successful as they were pre Crum, I was not born when he was winning alot.

I think that is also why they were not on the ESPNU list, as it was post 1984, which is also why UNLV came in at number 8.

Louisville now seems immensely profitable, and they should be left on the list as a top program and destination even post Pitino.

UNC, Kansas, Duke, UCLA, Louisville, Kentucky

The above no matter what happened to their current coach should be premier jobs and do well. Yes that means I am admitting I was wrong about what would happen if Pitino left Louisville, cotton you were right and I was impressed learning more about the Cardinals program.

Michigan State, Arizona, UConn, Texas, Florida, LSU, Memphis, Syracuse, Villanova, Georgetown, Wake Forest, Maryland, Gonzaga, Indiana, Ohio State, Michigan, UNLV.

This group has some good-great history and will continue to be amongst the very top programs probably but several on this list have HOF coaches and will struggle after they leave. Indiana post Knight could be a good example if a perfect hire is not made of what awaits Michigan State post Izzo, Maryland post G Williams, UConn post Calhoun and Syracuse post Boeheim.

I think Tennessee is trying to get into group 2 right now.

I think we are paying Bruce Pearl so much because we are a program that is not even in group 2 now and it would be very tough to convince Bruce to stay (maybe impossible) if he was offered a job at a group 1 school.
 
#23
#23
cotton said:
I have a hard time believing UConn won't come up with a suitable replacement for Calhoun once he retires as well. I simply used the example with which I am most familiar.
Click to expand...
A guy who could take over and keep UCONN performing at a championship level already has an office in Gampel Pavilion.
 
#24
#24
cotton said:
I have a hard time believing UConn won't come up with a suitable replacement for Calhoun once he retires as well. I simply used the example with which I am most familiar.



Evidence that they have been willing and able to replace top notch coaches in the past suggests they might be able to do it in the future, as well.
Click to expand...
As long as Tom Jurich is the AD, they'll have no problem hiring a top level basketball coach.
 
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