Too much ice

#2,301
#2,301
NashVol11 said:
I understand where you are coming from. I just think she panicked and was driving away (and was also potentially told by at least one officer to "MOVE") rather than trying to attack or provoke them to kill her
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I'm sure she didn't intend on provoking them into killing her.
 
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#2,304
#2,304
RockyTop85 said:
Do you think she deserved to die if she was there protesting/agitating/interfering?
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I've not once said she deserved to die. No one does. Well, maybe Manson did and some others. My entire debate is that he did not "murder" her as our far lefties here want to accuse. My debate is that her actions and willfuly putting her self physically where she was to interfere and impede, and agitate created the situation by which she lost her life. And no one here arguing their far left ideals will admit she has accountability for contributing to the environment that ultimately cost her her life. If her and her spouse had made any other choice on how to spend their day instead of unlawfully impeding LE, this discussion does not exist. Decisions will always have consequences, whether you deserve it or not. They could have chosen to protest in a manner that did not put them in the street, in the middle of the op, physically impeding the op, etc., etc. There were many legal protest options they had available to them that could have been completely safe. She willfully chose wrong. The impending result caused her to be killed. All for a paycheck to be an agitator.

I did not deserve to lose some rental houses many years ago. But, I made some decisions that caused it, and I'm still suffering because of those decisions. See how that works?

They were setting up this whole thing. Her spouse exited the passenger side to film her blocking and impeding LE. She struck an officer in the process. He defended himself. Did he pull the trigger? Yes. Did it kill her? Yes. Did she cause that to happen by her presence and intentions to interfere? Yes. Do I think he enjoyed it or wanted to do that? No.
 
#2,305
#2,305
luthervol said:
I guess the next question would be....From the Native American perspective, was it an improvement?
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If it is, great, problem solved.

If it isn't, it stands to reason that they wish things had gone differently. Which is precisely what opposing immigration, especially illegal immigration, is trying to ensure.
 
#2,306
#2,306
I think the first shot was probably legal. Once he side stepped the vehicle the 3 or 4 he dumped through the passenger window is obscene and clearly an illegal use of force . I’m no lefty but I’m disgusted with the lack of objectivity coming from the Federal position.
 
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#2,307
#2,307
hog88 said:
What you keep ignoring is that by the law her death was probably 100% legally justified. She put herself in that position.

I'm not a back the blue guy, I think most cops are cops (federal LE included) because either they aren't smart enough to do anything else, have a bully or macho man complex or are just plain crooked. So why on earth would anyone in their right mind give someone like that the opportunity to legally kill them? Don't give LE a reason because they will take it.
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Well said!
 
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#2,308
#2,308
LouderVol said:
yeah I don't see you calling it out from the right when they are doing it.

the cop put himself in the way of a vehicle he wanted moved. its counterproductive at best. and an important nuance that is ignored.

one cop, or more, tells her to move, another is stopping her with his body, so they decide they get to arrest her for not obeying one of them, and a civilian gets shot because the cops put her in an impossible situation.
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No she did that. She willfully, for her paycheck to do so, placed herself in the middle of those cops to impede them. Her spouse can be seen exiting the car to video the confrontation.
 
#2,313
#2,313
lukeneyland said:
For the first shot yes. The devil is in the details though. It seems to me that the follow up shots came through the side window. That is an important distinction
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Not legally. Statistically, adrenaline kind of dictates multi-tap response when one fires out of fear for one's life. Logically, it probably indicates that it was an adrenal response as opposed to premeditated murder.
 
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#2,318
#2,318
NashVol11 said:
Well if the provocation was unintentional, then the "why would she provoke them/give them a reason" stuff is less meaningful to me
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She did intend on being present to be a nuisance. It was her job. The spouse exiting the vehicle to video the confrintation was deliberate. Multiple bad decisions and brainwashed ideals got her killed. Common sense and critical thinking was not a part of her day.

This was going to happen at some point. And it will again.

I don't recall this outcry though for the FBI agent that lost her life for knocking on a door to serve a warrant. Except that the door was swinging the opposite direction in that episode.
 
#2,319
#2,319
RockyTop85 said:
I defer to the guy who made unsourced posts about her spouse burning her kid with cigarettes on emotional non sequiturs.
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Fair enough I do get somewhat emotional about child abuse and hypocrisy, so on that point I will stand

However it doesn't change my point that "deserved to die" is a non-important emotional thing, one by which you as an attorney know has no basis in law
 
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#2,321
#2,321
GVF said:
I've not once said she deserved to die. No one does. Well, maybe Manson did and some others. My entire debate is that he did not "murder" her as our far lefties here want to accuse. My debate is that her actions and willfuly putting her self physically where she was to interfere and impede, and agitate created the situation by which she lost her life. And no one here arguing their far left ideals will admit she has accountability for contributing to the environment that ultimately cost her her life. If her and her spouse had made any other choice on how to spend their day instead of unlawfully impeding LE, this discussion does not exist. Decisions will always have consequences, whether you deserve it or not. They could have chosen to protest in a manner that did not put them in the street, in the middle of the op, physically impeding the op, etc., etc. There were many legal protest options they had available to them that could have been completely safe. She willfully chose wrong. The impending result caused her to be killed. All for a paycheck to be an agitator.

I did not deserve to lose some rental houses many years ago. But, I made some decisions that caused it, and I'm still suffering because of those decisions. See how that works?

They were setting up this whole thing. Her spouse exited the passenger side to film her blocking and impeding LE. She struck an officer in the process. He defended himself. Did he pull the trigger? Yes. Did it kill her? Yes. Did she cause that to happen by her presence and intentions to interfere? Yes. Do I think he enjoyed it or wanted to do that? No.
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My first post said (and every post thereafter inferred) that the shooting was legally justified but that it was morally wrong.

It’s morally wrong because she wasn’t a threat to others, wasn’t trying to hit him and, in hindsight, he wasn’t in immediate danger.

It’s legally justified because we defer to the snap second judgments of police and his reaction was reasonable if viewed without the benefit of hindsight.

So you’re not *saying* she deserved to die, but you keep arguing to put the blame more squarely on her. And you’re arguing with me, who says simply that her killing was morally wrong.

So do you see why it looks like you’re arguing that she deserved to die and why I’m confused about this? It’s a lot like arguing that Charlie Kirk was a racist scumbag in a thread about his murder.
 
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