Too much ice

[EasternVol]

Seems like it would apply to her? Are you going to vw consistent?

How would the cop in DC who shot her have helped anything by stepping out of her way? He should have whacked her with a nightstick and cuffed her

 

[EasternVol]

Demanding a false premise when it's repeatedly been shown to be false.

It's further to an argument made by the person I asked. The question's for him.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Seems like he'd have been faster to bail then.
Shooting her didn't and wouldn't have done a thing to save his life.

How long exactly do you think he had to consider all of that after he saw the vehicle start to move towards him? Dint watch the slow motion replay. Please Watch it at real speed and then tell me what you would have done.

 

[GVF]

So then why are you belaboring my answer? Do you not like arguing moral points instead of legal ones?
I was asking for a better word for someone who cares about human life.
It would be odd to say the least, maybe unless you're a Vulcan.
Some people do view things that way. It's a profound level of sociopathy.
Reason.

From a moral point she shouldn't have been aiding and abetting illegal immigrants. That is against the law, making it morally wrong. She shouldn't have been interfering with officers legally carrying out the duties of their job. Morally wrong.

 

[InVOLuntary]

How would the cop in DC who shot her have helped anything by stepping out of her way? He should have whacked her with a nightstick and cuffed her

He could have just stepped out of her way instead of executing her. She posed no harm to him.

I was told FAFO and play stupid games win stupid prizes. Does that nit apply here?

 

[EasternVol]

How long exactly do you think he had to consider all of that after he saw the vehicle start to move towards him? Dint watch the slow motion replay. Please Watch it at real speed and then tell me what you would have done.

I've watched it. He had time to get out of the way. As a matter of fact he did get out of the way except for a graze.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So then why are you belaboring my answer? Do you not like arguing moral points instead of legal ones?

I'm asking what benefit you expect from reducing it to your personal opinion.

I was asking for a better word for someone who cares about human life.

Someone who cares about human life. The strict definition of humanism is an ultimate value of humans, usually independent of metaphysical/religious/supernatural values. But if you want to use it as merely anyone who values human life, that's cool by me.

It would be odd to say the least, maybe unless you're a Vulcan.

Or an honest atheist.

Some people do view things that way. It's a profound level of sociopathy.

Or an honest atheist. And so what? In a world with no "ultimate" moral standard, why should I consider sociopathy as wrong?

Reason.

Explain? What makes your moral preferences "ultimate" moral reality? How do you "reason" "ultimate" right/wrong in a blind universe that doesn't concern itself with moral "ought" questions? Or how do you reason that it concerns itself with "ought" questions?

 

[EasternVol]

From a moral point she shouldn't have been aiding and abetting illegal immigrants. That is against the law, making it morally wrong. She shouldn't have been interfering with officers legally carrying out the duties of their job. Morally wrong.

Does any of that make it okay to kill her?

 

[OrangeTsar]

How would the cop in DC who shot her have helped anything by stepping out of her way? He should have whacked her with a nightstick and cuffed her

She and the woman in MN both made very bad decisions to put themselves in very dangerous positions.
That is one reason I no longer go anywhere NEAR a protest anymore whether I agree or disagree with it.
Fear and emotion start adrenaline floods and the rational part of the brain starts to shut down. Things become unpredictable and no one has much ability to weigh carefully their choices and actions.
Both were tragedies and both women would probably be alive today otherwise as both appear to have been fairly normal average people until they allowed themselves to get swept up in a mob.
Once that happens, evolution kicks in and the primitive brain stem takes over and it becomes fight or flight turned up to 11.
Both women were merely pawns used by political actors who cared absolutely nothing about them.

 

[EasternVol]

He could have just stepped out of her way instead of executing her. She posed no harm to him.

I was told FAFO and play stupid games win stupid prizes. Does that nit apply here?

She posed potential harm to him and those behind him, which is why restraining her was warranted. Killing her wasn't. Letting her pass wasn't either.

 

[sonofUT62]

The same people hear cheering on ICE as they attack/kill US citizens are the same people who bemoaned Ruby Ridge. How times have changed. More gubmint as long as its the type that can physically oppress amirite?

If you’re comparing this to Ruby Ridge then you know absolutely jack about what went down. Two completely different situations. Both of them the result of massive government overreach One has nothing to do with the other. ICE has no business on our streets snatching up law abiding people. But they didn’t come to her house and shoot her while she was holding a child. Don’t talk about what you don’t know about.

 

[NashVol11]

Most people are unaware that this same officer was drug 50 yards by a vehicle driven by an illegal driver evading arrest last summer in Minnesota and was hospitalized with serious injuries.
Do you think that might POSSIBLY have been in his mind when he had a split second to make a life or death decision

People keep saying this. If you're ending people's lives because you have PTSD or whatever then you shouldn't have a gun. Acting like the shooter is the victim in this situation is ridiculous

 

[Wireless1]

People need to stop hypothesizing about her intent, determining her path based on what we see after the shooting, or requiring the vehicle actually strike the officer.

The legal standard is whether the use of force was objectively justified, from the officer's perspective. Not her subjective thought process.

Where the path of the vehicle ultimately was is irrelevant to the officer having to decide in a split second how to react when it first moved forward. At best, one could say its not entirely clear where she is going to go. But from the officer's perspective he easily could, and reasonably could, believe he would be hit by it.

And whether he actually was hit, or received a glancing blow, is also irrelevant. In fact, that people are debating how serious it has to be to use deadly force is alarming. The officer doesn't have to wait until he is in the midst of being run over to fire.

I heard some numbskull last night on a call in show saying he could have shot her tires out. Ugh, these are the same people who say cops could have shot someone in the arm or the leg. No, just no. Cops are trained to use deadly force if justified in defense of self or others and to defeat the threat. Not wound them -- all that does is make the threat worse.

It has been really frustrating to see people post about this, and not take into account that the officer had to act in a fraction of a second, to decide what to do with a driver who was not complying with other officer's directions, and who lurched forward, at least generally in his direction. There is no requirement he be directly in the path of the vehicle to fire.

Don't misunderstand. Noem and Trump have handled this just as badly, blaming her and making it political. They are both morons who spoke way too soon. And these kinds of confrontations are a result of their policies. And they suck.

But that does not mean the officer has to stand there and hope he doesn't get run over.

Thanks, we should just reference #1697 when the what if's on both sides go off the rails.
It's a sad situation all around that too many people are using to promote their agenda.

 

[sonofUT62]

Well if Krystal Noem said so…then by all means.

 

[NashVol11]

How long exactly do you think he had to consider all of that after he saw the vehicle start to move towards him? Dint watch the slow motion replay. Please Watch it at real speed and then tell me what you would have done.

Step out of the way, which is a reflex for most people including him

 

[sonofUT62]

People keep saying this. If you're ending people's lives because you have PTSD or whatever then you shouldn't have a gun. Acting like the shooter is the victim in this situation is ridiculous

The gun isn’t the problem. It’s the badge. And the outrageous amount of immunity that comes with it.

 

[OrangeTsar]

I've watched it. He had time to get out of the way. As a matter of fact he did get out of the way except for a graze.

Ok. Unfortunately he did not seem to have the same preternatural lighting reflexes and calm decision making abilities that you posses there Deputy Fife.
I trust we can expect you to immediately offer your training services to law enforcement agencies around the nation quite soon then?

 

[NashVol11]

The gun isn’t the problem. It’s the badge. And the outrageous amount of immunity that comes with it.

Either way, if you're so sensitive to what happened earlier in your career that it becomes a reason why you killed someone else, you should not have that job

 

[LouderVol]

Most people are unaware that this same officer was drug 50 yards by a vehicle driven by an illegal driver evading arrest last summer in Minnesota and was hospitalized with serious injuries.
Do you think that might POSSIBLY have been in his mind when he had a split second to make a life or death decision

it wasn't a split second decision to stand in front of the vehicle. he clearly had time, before she started moving, to get out of the way. he put himself there, at some point (maybe not this point) the cop doing something stupid to illicit a response they want shouldn't be a protected action.

ESPECIALLY if he's got a history with it.

 

[NashVol11]

Ok. Unfortunately he did not seem to have the same preternatural lighting reflexes and calm decision making abilities that you posses there Deputy Fife.

He literally did - he got out of the way. His problem was taking the additional action of pulling his gun and shooting the driver in the head

 

[LouderVol]

How long exactly do you think he had to consider all of that after he saw the vehicle start to move towards him? Dint watch the slow motion replay. Please Watch it at real speed and then tell me what you would have done.

not stood in front of the car in the first place. general rule of thumb I follow on the road/public way.

 

[sonofUT62]

Either way, if you're so sensitive to what happened earlier in your career that it becomes a reason why you killed someone else, you should not have that job

Yes. He should be allowed to own a gun as a private citizen provided he doesn’t use it to break any laws. He shouldn’t have a badge. The badge is the issue. Reverse this in your head where she shoots an ICE agent and claims she felt like she was in danger. She would be on her way to Cuba.

 

[OrangeTsar]

not stood in front of the car in the first place. general rule of thumb I follow on the road/public way.

So if a bank robber gets into a getaway car, the proper response for law enforcement is to step aside and let the criminal pass?
Got it! Thanks

 

[sonofUT62]

If anyone reading this doesn’t know the name Caroline Small then do me a small favor and look it up. Read the story and ask yourself why this never received national coverage. As a foot note..the officer who killed her..who the DA declined to prosecute…later went on to murder his ex wife and her boyfriend despite a restraining order.!

 

[OrangeTsar]

He literally did - he got out of the way. His problem was taking the additional action of pulling his gun and shooting the driver in the head

Because police are trained to stop someone presenting a danger to the public. Shootings like this happen dozens of times per year all around the country. The only reason anyone is complaining about this one is because the agent was from ICE.