To Protect and to Serve...

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#7,801
#7,801
agent|orange said:
So the fiance had to prove he had a condition and then they had to wait another 6 minutes.

The paramedics weren't able to stabilize him as it seems the cold air caused his lungs to seize up.

His life could have very likely been saved had the officer driven him to the hospital. However, it appears there is a department policy against a cop using his squad car in lieu of a medical emergency vehicle, regardless of circumstance.

The pessimistic side of me says there might be higher levels of corruption at play here.
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Check this link out as it can answer a few of your questions.

Dash cam video shows moments leading up to the death of Jim Fall - WQOW TV: Eau Claire, WI NEWS18 News, Weather, and Sports

You are jumping to conclusions here. Big time.

I think of the more critical members on here, you tend to look at things a lot more objectively. This isn't one of the cases though.
 
#7,802
#7,802
Grand Vol said:
Check this link out as it can answer a few of your questions.

Dash cam video shows moments leading up to the death of Jim Fall - WQOW TV: Eau Claire, WI NEWS18 News, Weather, and Sports

You are jumping to conclusions here. Big time.

I think of the more critical members on here, you tend to look at things a lot more objectively. This isn't one of the cases though.
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I'm on my work computer so the video didn't resolve.

When you were working the highway, were you allowed to use your cruiser in lieu of an emergency vehicle?

The only reason that is limited is, in a real sense, perhaps budgetary. Perhaps the police can't justify their squadcars being EMT ferries and they also can't assume the liability.

Perhaps something more nefarious is at play here. Police Chief funnels all emergency calls (regardless of severity) through ambulances. Ambulance rides are very expensive.

I tend to explore all options. I hate it for this cop in all honesty. He seems to just be rigidly following protocol... and from the get-go I've been saying the protocol was wrong.

Had the guy just driven the man to the hospital (and thus limiting the exposure to cold air as well as cutting down the time spent waiting) the man could have lived.

I still can't watch the video so unless the cop was being an indignant prick I can't really fault him here.
 
#7,803
#7,803
agent|orange said:
I'm on my work computer so the video didn't resolve.

When you were working the highway, were you allowed to use your cruiser in lieu of an emergency vehicle?
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There was never a written guidance on the matter, but I'm sure exceptions might have been made in a case of extreme emergency and if EMTs weren't readily available. As to who's discretion that might have been, that would depend.

agent|orange said:
The only reason that is limited is, in a real sense, perhaps budgetary. Perhaps the police can't justify their squadcars being EMT ferries and they also can't assume the liability.
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Nail on the head here. If that man was to die while inside that police car, who assumes responsibility? Especially when medical technicians are only six minutes away. You're looking at a civil lawsuit against the department and the first thing a lawyer is going to do is point to the procedure and say "you are supposed to wait for medical help. Why didn't you?"

agent|orange said:
Perhaps something more nefarious is at play here. Police Chief funnels all emergency calls (regardless of severity) through ambulances. Ambulance rides are very expensive.
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Which is why we all are supposed to have insurance.

I wouldn't call anything that happened nefarious. Do you think the officer should be charged with manslaughter?

agent|orange said:
I tend to explore all options. I hate it for this cop in all honesty. He seems to just be rigidly following protocol... and from the get-go I've been saying the protocol was wrong.

Had the guy just driven the man to the hospital (and thus limiting the exposure to cold air as well as cutting down the time spent waiting) the man could have lived.
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And I'll say the same thing I said before. There is no way you or anyone can say with certainty that he would have lived either way.

I'm going to disagree on the protocol being wrong. I don't think it's entirely right as there should be some flexibility built in, but that does not make it wrong. The officer was in a damned if he did or damned if he did not situation due to the severity of the response.

agent|orange said:
I still can't watch the video so unless the cop was being an indignant prick I can't really fault him here.
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No, but you see others chomping at the bit to fault him.

FYI, There isn't a video on the page, just a more detailed article.
 
#7,804
#7,804
Cdywolfe said:
I'm sure I'll be berated and have my integrity questioned for saying so but... I honestly don't know if he is able to differentiate between criticism/desire for legitimate accountability and blind hatred.
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I'll tell you what. Let's play a game. It's a really good game called "this is my profession." All the questions I will ask except the last two are either yes or no. And that doesn't include a "but" or "however" or anything except a yes or no. Here we will begin:

1. In your professional opinion in the field of health care, do the vast majority of police have the ability to determine and/or explain the severity of injuries beyond basic terms? For example they might say "shot in the chest and trouble breathing" instead of "gunshot wound with Pneumothorax and laceration of the internal thoracic artery."

2. Are most police trained in first aid/CPR beyond a basic level of minimal lifesaving abilities?

3. Are the vast majority of police trained enough to distinguish between a serious asthma attack or a regular one?

4. Knowing the above, should police take it upon themselves to attempt to determine the severity of injuries and provide transportation to a hospital?

5. Taking conditional factors like distance and weather out of play, is six minutes for an ambulance to arrive on scene of a medical emergency: Below average, average or above average?

6. Now for the scenario. I know you don't work in a dispatch, but you're taking a coffee break or whatever and hear a radio call come in from a policeman that stopped a vehicle. He says an individual is having an asthma attack and is requesting medical attention. The patient is responsive, but is having difficulty breathing but has used his inhaler. You have the choice between:

A five minute ride to the hospital in the police vehicle after getting the victim into the cruiser and/or back into the initial vehicle.

Or

A six minute wait for EMTs that posses the training and equipment to stabilize a patient and provide initial critical care.

This is a good game and I'm wondering if you will answer them truthfully.
 
#7,805
#7,805
1. No
2. I thought, though I may be wrong, that they were CPR certified. Beyond that no.
3. No
4. No*
5. Well below average
6. Throw them in the car and go**

*I feel like this should fall under the Good Samaritan law. Like I said, I would never crucify anyone for legitimately trying to help someone in serious need of medical attention.

**If the patient is responsive then the solution is easy... Ask them what they want and do that.
 
#7,806
#7,806
If also like to say that most of those questions require far more complex answers then yes/no but I tried to comply.
 
#7,807
#7,807
Cdywolfe said:
1. No
2. I thought, though I may be wrong, that they were CPR certified. Beyond that no.
3. No
4. No*
5. Well below average
6. Throw them in the car and go**

*I feel like this should fall under the Good Samaritan law. Like I said, I would never crucify anyone for legitimately trying to help someone in serious need of medical attention.

**If the patient is responsive then the solution is easy... Ask them what they want and do that.
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2. Yes, if memory serves it's an OSHA requirement to have CPR with AED for infant, child and adult. By basic first aid/CPR, I meant what is required by law for the position of first responder.

4. This is more of a vague question and I likely could have worded it better. So wording it like this instead:

Should the police attempt to diagnose a patient and take them to a hospital knowing EMS is en route?

And 6. Do we know if the victim or the girlfriend agreed to wait for EMS? Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not. It's unknown at this time.

Here's my problem with the outrage thus far over the situation. An officer, likely most, cannot (and very probably should not) determine the extent or severity of an asthma attack when EMS is that close. And each and every article says the same thing that the victim became unresponsive after EMS arrived on scene. I agree that an officer, any of them really, could/should use their vehicle to transport in an obviously life threatening situation. However, even you admit most probably cannot tell exactly what attacks would be life threatening or not. And the article I linked above does state he provided care until the EMS arrived. As to what level of care, I'd be willing to bet pennies to dollars he was in way over his head and resorted back to training to say "wait for the EMTs." And that's certainly not the wrong approach to take when they are that close.

This is a sad unfortunate situation that the officer became involved in. But he really is no more to blame in this death than the girlfriend who tried to drive him to the hospital instead of calling 911 herself from home. And that point right there is what most of the people engaged in this outrage completely ignore. Why didn't she call from home? Maybe the victim got worse while they were heading there, I don't know. But the death cannot be laid at this officer's feet because he waited for an ambulance and professional help that was minutes away.

If he knew then what he knows now, do you think he would have packed them into his vehicle and raced to the hospital or provided an escort? Does it seem like he is uncaring or doing what he was supposed to by waiting for the professionals to arrive on scene since he very likely did not know how severe the attack was?
 
#7,808
#7,808
SamRebel35 said:
If he died in the back of the police cruiser on the way to the hospital, there isn't a single person in any of the cop threads that would hold it against the officer. As it is, he let his procedures stand in the way of helping somebody that needed to get to the hospital. The guy died. I won't blame the cop, but I will say that he didn't exactly go above and beyond as the officer in the first story.
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I agree with the last sentence..... He made a bad call.... One that may or may not have made a difference, but he sure could have made more of a humane effort.
 
#7,809
#7,809
Grand Vol said:
2. Yes, if memory serves it's an OSHA requirement to have CPR with AED for infant, child and adult. By basic first aid/CPR, I meant what is required by law for the position of first responder.

4. This is more of a vague question and I likely could have worded it better. So wording it like this instead:

Should the police attempt to diagnose a patient and take them to a hospital knowing EMS is en route?

And 6. Do we know if the victim or the girlfriend agreed to wait for EMS? Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not. It's unknown at this time.

Here's my problem with the outrage thus far over the situation. An officer, likely most, cannot (and very probably should not) determine the extent or severity of an asthma attack when EMS is that close. And each and every article says the same thing that the victim became unresponsive after EMS arrived on scene. I agree that an officer, any of them really, could/should use their vehicle to transport in an obviously life threatening situation. However, even you admit most probably cannot tell exactly what attacks would be life threatening or not. And the article I linked above does state he provided care until the EMS arrived. As to what level of care, I'd be willing to bet pennies to dollars he was in way over his head and resorted back to training to say "wait for the EMTs." And that's certainly not the wrong approach to take when they are that close.

This is a sad unfortunate situation that the officer became involved in. But he really is no more to blame in this death than the girlfriend who tried to drive him to the hospital instead of calling 911 herself from home. And that point right there is what most of the people engaged in this outrage completely ignore. Why didn't she call from home? Maybe the victim got worse while they were heading there, I don't know. But the death cannot be laid at this officer's feet because he waited for an ambulance and professional help that was minutes away.

If he knew then what he knows now, do you think he would have packed them into his vehicle and raced to the hospital or provided an escort? Does it seem like he is uncaring or doing what he was supposed to by waiting for the professionals to arrive on scene since he very likely did not know how severe the attack was?
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I think we, for the most part, aren't at any disagreement regarding this situation.

Whether you agree or disagree with my stances, I generally express disapproval for law enforcement when they abuse the authority they've been given (or at least I feel they have) or for their extreme lack of accountability. You're not going to see me crucifying an officer for not making a perfect decision in a medical emergency.

Prior to being a nurse, I worked in EMS for three years. I fully realize how difficult that decision can be. The classic should I stay and play or load and go?There are about a hundred different variables that go into deciding whether attempting to stabilize the patient on scene or throw them in the truck and gunning it to the hospital is the best option.
 
#7,811
#7,811
#VFL__ said:
Farmer's savings among police seizures that paid for Montana K-9 unit
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Despite finding no drugs and not charging Ayala with a crime, state prosecutors petitioned to keep the ($16,000) cash. District Judge Brenda Gilbert sided with the state and ordered Ayala to relinquish the money on Oct. 27, 2014.

"Though no drugs were found in the vehicle, the odor of narcotics can linger in a vehicle and result in a positive canine alert, even after the narcotics have been removed," Gilbert wrote in her ruling. Ayala's lawyers, Young and Elisabeth Montoya, were unable to prove otherwise. Young said the new law changes that.

"It's a tremendous improvement that the government has to prove the relationship instead of forcing the person to prove there is no relationship," Young said. "The burden of proof is on the right person now."
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Holy freakin' crap.

So if I have an air freshener and a couple bags of fast food on account of driving across the country... I'm now suspect of a crime I can't prove I didn't commit and I can be shaken down?

I really was naive enough to think this kind of thing, as part of a legal process, only happened in central American sh1t holes.

It's one thing if it's a dirty cop but this went through the DA and a Judge... who all decided that this guy should forfeit his life savings.
 
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#7,815
#7,815
Cdywolfe said:
Prior to being a nurse, I worked in EMS for three years. I fully realize how difficult that decision can be. The classic should I stay and play or load and go?There are about a hundred different variables that go into deciding whether attempting to stabilize the patient on scene or throw them in the truck and gunning it to the hospital is the best option.
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The difference being is that you have had the proper training to make that decision while most cops have not. I can tell you from personal experience that most cops that roll into a serious medical emergency go into sphincter factor 10 and generally are not very helpful beyond closing an ambulance door. (and the very theatrical pounding on the ambulance door you see in most movies) And most of the time the decision by them to treat what they can on scene like obvious heavy bleeding or performing CPR is probably the best decision to make instead of tossing a patient into a cramped car where they cannot be tended to. Especially in a situation where EMS is close at hand.

You may say people cannot fault the officer on scene, but it's certainly not stopping people from putting up stuff like this:

https://www.facebook.com/6940264807...1.1073741827.694026480705183/696959750411856/

Or this:

Man Dies During Traffic Stop From Asthma Attack as Cop Refuses to Let them Drive to Hospital | The Free Thought Project

Or any number of people on here from second guessing the intentions of the officer even when he urges EMS to get there quicker. And some of you wonder why I tend to ignore the articles from that website when I read things like this:

After they were stopped, Kressin’s girlfriend immediately starts to beg the officer to take him to the hospital. The officer instead calls for an ambulance.
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Yeah, how dare he try to get medical attention on scene in a situation he wasn't prepared to deal with! The nerve of that pig! And this always helps:

The officer just stares at the couple
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As if any of those ****tards writing ignorant comments below the article would have done any different. Or even some of the posters in here. I'm really glad we've got a bunch of heroes that would have come in like Albert Schweitzer and saved the day.

Yes, this hits a nerve with me especially with some of the posters here accusing the department of "nefarious" dealings and those who choose to second guess the actions of a man in a medical situation where they would not have done any different. Oh sure, they can say "I would have swooped in and pushed my red cape out of the way while saving that man's life!" in the aftermath. I guess hindsight is 20/20.
 
#7,817
#7,817
GV... All I can say is that in this specific instance we're pretty much in agreement. The criticism of the officer appears to be ignorant and irrational.

I said I thought there would be one poster here that might would criticize LE in this case but that doesn't mean there isn't thousands outside of VN who certainly would.
 
#7,822
#7,822
Grand Vol said:
They wanted that Marxist POS, they have to live with that decision.

FTR though, I think stop and frisk is not the best way to go about combating that particular problem.
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Statistics say otherwise, look at the crime/murder rate since the stop and frisk program has stopped.
 
#7,823
#7,823
Rasputin_Vol said:
How would you stop the killing?
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Well, I wouldn't be using stop and frisk to find weapons for starters...

Community policing would be essential in this case as York pointed out some months ago. Get the communities invested in themselves along with assistance from LEOs when and if needed. But it starts from the ground up with the residents putting their feet down against the gang activity.

Nothing is going to completely stop the killing. But stop and frisk is not the answer as it doesn't combat the problem. Neither is flooding an area with additional police. If you don't have a community that has a vested interest in securing themselves, nothing the NYPD does will work in the long run.
 
#7,824
#7,824
FLVOL69 said:
Statistics say otherwise, look at the crime/murder rate since the stop and frisk program has stopped.
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It's the whole giving up liberty in pursuit of security thing with me. I think the idea of stop and frisk can be easily abused in the wrong hands. And will lead to continued rifts in the community versus the police if reenacted.
 
#7,825
#7,825
Grand Vol said:
It's the whole giving up liberty in pursuit of security thing with me. I think the idea of stop and frisk can be easily abused in the wrong hands. And will lead to continued rifts in the community versus the police if reenacted.
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Those rifts will always be there as long as the dems spew their hate filled agenda of racism and profiling by LEO, go back and compare the murder rate after Rudy Giuliani took charge in contrast to comrade DiBlasio, not even close.. A mere inconvience if you're a law abiding citizen. Jmo
 
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