To Protect and to Serve...

[Grand Vol]

Agreed. And neither is indicative that more is better.

I posted this in response to your posting of the Baltimore Sun article as though it was giving any real information as to the effectiveness of their policing policies.

I believe both tell us the same thing when looked at without looking at other factors. Absolutely Nothing.

There is a careful balance to be established in any situation of this type. It's identifying the external factors that makes it work, I agree.

The real question is why did it work in NYC and why didn't it work in Baltimore?

 

[Cdywolfe]

Obviously you were insecure about getting called out. Else you wouldn't have gone to the trouble of making a scene the way you did trying to garner attention in that manner. I would hope such insecurities don't get into your professional career as that would certainly not be a good thing. I mean, you are responsible for people's lives and being insecure about the way people perceive you could lead to your lying about a patient's well being if you were at fault if something happened.

But hey, you won't get criminally prosecuted anyway, so no big deal. Right?

You really should've quit a long time ago. It's kind of starting to get sad.

 

[Dr Dread]

Did you miss where I stated that quite some time back?



Is there any reason you prefer to ignore what I say and create this perception in your mind that I always take the side of the cops?

Watch this.

The "Michelle" lady. Dead wrong. If I was "Andre", or whatever the guy's name was that she was calling; we would be having a long talk.

Wrong for acting a fool in an elementary school parking lot were your 2nd grade daughter has to attend everyday.

Wrong for doing it while 8 months pregnant.

Right for exerting the rights granted to her under The Constitution.

Wrong for getting herself in a situation were she had to. Especially when considering Wrongs 1 & 2.

WRONG for interjecting race into it.


Let's hear your take on the officer.

 

[Grand Vol]

I don't see any contradictions in the two cases you cited. In People v. Long, the police officer had reasonable evidence to believe a crime had been committed by the suspect, and therefore reasonable grounds to detain him. At that point, the suspect is required to identify himself if asked.

In Kolender v. Lawson, there was no such evidence of a crime, and therefore no justification to detain him or require he identify himself.

Given the fact that the officer states clearly that he sees nothing that indicates a crime has been committed, only Kolender v. Lawson applies here.

I didn't hear that part of the video so yes, only one would apply.

My response was in reference to the Terry Stop criteria you posted and the fact that the cases, even California law, does contradict each other. The State guidelines say a person is not bound to identify themselves until they are detained. My point was that they could have considered her "detained" while the patrolmen were sorting things out. As both parties should have been actually even though one was the complainant.

Even if he believed that by questioning "Michelle", he might obtain enough to show a crime was in fact committed, he does not have enough evidence to legally detain her, and cannot require her to identify herself if she chooses not to.

Which is correct and they did not approach the situation in a rational manner. Again, Monday morning QB here, they should have calmed the situation, taken both into another environment and certainly out of sight of each other and made it abundantly clear that they were there to sort things out. If it was my case, that's likely how I would have run it. Calm both parties and get the facts.

At any time, police may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the police also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack "specific and articulable facts"[4] that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify himself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time.

You don't need to keep quoting Terry. I'm very familiar with it.

As far as my statement that you are trying too hard, so far you've only stated the obviousl. It is clear by watching the video that everyone involved could have handled the situation better; though I wholeheartedly support and agree with "Michelle" lawfully refusing to give her name.

And again, legally she does not I agree. But you, and others, have entirely omitted the "how" of all this. Were all parties at fault for elevating a situation? Yes and I would hope you would realize that as well. She very well could have remained calm as the initial contact from the officers was fairly professional. However, when she keeps cutting them off and immediately jumped to the race card, she didn't make things any better. And you and I both know it.

Was he wrong to go after her like that? Yes, he certainly was. And should have calmed the situation.

You are welcome to fact-check or rebut any aspect of the case I've presented, but in the end, I think you'll find that it is solid proof that the officer involved was acting outside the law. The question here is will you be willing to state it.

Do me a favor and don't assume I'm going to take the side of the patrolmen automatically. You want to discuss this in a friendly fashion, come to the table without your preconceived notions. I have not tried at all to justify anything as I quoted above. Even before you posted your thoughts on the matter I put that out there. So stop being a dick about it and make sure you've got your own facts straight before accusing me of something I have not done.

 

[Dr Dread]

There is a careful balance to be established in any situation of this type. It's identifying the external factors that makes it work, I agree.

The real question is why did it work in NYC and why didn't it work in Baltimore?

Good post.

No good answer. Wish I knew.

 

[Grand Vol]

Watch this.

The "Michelle" lady. Dead wrong. If I was "Andre", or whatever the guy's name was that she was calling; we would be having a long talk.

Wrong for acting a fool in an elementary school parking lot were your 2nd grade daughter has to attend everyday.

Wrong for doing it while 8 months pregnant.

Right for exerting the rights granted to her under The Constitution.

Wrong for getting herself in a situation were she had to. Especially when considering Wrongs 1 & 2.

WRONG for interjecting race into it.


Let's hear your take on the officer.

Right for saying he can request a name. (although she has the right to decline to answer)

Right for trying to get both sides of the story without rushing to judgment

Right for listening in the beginning

Wrong for continuing on the "give me a name" kick. Michelle would have sufficed for the moment.

Wrong for not attempting to calm the situation by explaining why they were there instead of continuing on the name game.

Wrong for not being straight up that they were only there to figure out what happened and reach a mutual agreement from both parties.

Wrong for detaining her.

Honestly, I didn't get any further than that in the video. Didn't see the need to go through eleven minutes when the die was cast early on and it wasn't going to get any better.

 

[Grand Vol]

Good post.

No good answer. Wish I knew.

I'm not as dumb as some think.

Some wish I was though.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Obviously, this cop either has way too much time on his hands or he was on a fishing expedition.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaoYeXq_Km0[/youtube]

 

[Cdywolfe]

Obviously, this cop either has way too much time on his hands or he was on a fishing expedition.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaoYeXq_Km0[/youtube]

Saw this one the other day. It's another one that I question if it's real. It's certainly bizarre either way.

 

[Grand Vol]

You really should've quit a long time ago. It's kind of starting to get sad.

Sad was you posting that little rant that you allegedly didn't care about like a 16 year old drama queen and even more sad you couldn't even direct towards me.

Even more sad you show your true colors when you think someone takes something out of context.

 

[Dr Dread]

Right for saying he can request a name. (although she has the right to decline to answer)

Right for trying to get both sides of the story without rushing to judgment

Right for listening in the beginning

Wrong for continuing on the "give me a name" kick. Michelle would have sufficed for the moment.

Wrong for not attempting to calm the situation by explaining why they were there instead of continuing on the name game.

Wrong for not being straight up that they were only there to figure out what happened and reach a mutual agreement from both parties.

Wrong for detaining her.

Honestly, I didn't get any further than that in the video. Didn't see the need to go through eleven minutes when the die was cast early on and it wasn't going to get any better.

I hope that when you are saying "Wrong for detaining her", you are also including in that:

Grabbing her against her will.
Forcing her to the ground against her will.
Restraining her hands behind her back against her will.
Forcing her into a vehicle.
Transporting her to another location against her will.
Locking her in an enclosed area against her will.
Making her submit to having her picture taken, giving pertinent information about her including but not limited to her fingerprints while under direst.
Held in a confined area until a fee is paid to secure her release.

This is what the cop did to this lady. All done illegally.

Police have the authority to make decisions that can have great impact on someone's life, up to and including ending it.
This comes with a huge responsibility to resist abusing it.

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

This video is crazy. What happens when a white guy open carries an AR15 rifle, compared to what happens when a black guy does the same? Let's see.


http://youtu.be/BKGZnB41_e4

(Disclaimer)
Yes, I understand this is only one video, it doesn't speak to the fact that all cops aren't racist. The contrast is very striking to me though.

Longer 2nd test video here.

http://youtu.be/RhSH928N9b8

 

[Dr Dread]

This video is crazy. What happens when a white guy open carries an AR15 rifle, compared to what happens when a black guy does the same? Let's see.


http://youtu.be/BKGZnB41_e4

(Disclaimer)
Yes, I understand this is only one video, it doesn't speak to the fact that all cops aren't racist. The contrast is very striking to me though.

Longer 2nd test video here.

http://youtu.be/RhSH928N9b8

Saw this one a while back. Looked like they tried a little to hard to get a desired result.

 

[MercyPercy]

This video is crazy. What happens when a white guy open carries an AR15 rifle, compared to what happens when a black guy does the same? Let's see.


http://youtu.be/BKGZnB41_e4

(Disclaimer)
Yes, I understand this is only one video, it doesn't speak to the fact that all cops aren't racist. The contrast is very striking to me though.

Longer 2nd test video here.

http://youtu.be/RhSH928N9b8

Anyone who says they're surprised at the differing reactions of the officers would be lying through their teeth.

I have black and latino friends who were caught in the same exact compromising situations as me, and each time, I've gotten away with little more than a talking to and they've spent the night in jail and had to show up for court. It is what it is.

 

[FLVOL_79]

This video is crazy. What happens when a white guy open carries an AR15 rifle, compared to what happens when a black guy does the same? Let's see.


http://youtu.be/BKGZnB41_e4

(Disclaimer)
Yes, I understand this is only one video, it doesn't speak to the fact that all cops aren't racist. The contrast is very striking to me though.

Longer 2nd test video here.

http://youtu.be/RhSH928N9b8

How many white guys have used automatic weapons in drive by's or crimes in general compared to blacks?

And now you know and knowing is half the battle!

 

[FLVOL_79]

Anyone who says they're surprised at the differing reactions of the officers would be lying through their teeth.

I have black and latino friends who were caught in the same exact compromising situations as me, and each time, I've gotten away with little more than a talking to and they've spent the night in jail and had to show up for court. It is what it is.

Did they have priors? Warrants for unpaid child support? Run their mouths a little bit?


Pro tip: Be polite to cops and DONT resist arrest (aka stfu and listen) and you'll be fine.

 

[Cdywolfe]

Sad was you posting that little rant that you allegedly didn't care about like a 16 year old drama queen and even more sad you couldn't even direct towards me.

Even more sad you show your true colors when you think someone takes something out of context.

Or just keep making a fool of yourself... I'd be lying if I said it wasn't at least mildly entertaining.

 

[Biopsyman]

If the police were handling out welfare checks.. They would be loved

 

[Grand Vol]

I hope that when you are saying "Wrong for detaining her", you are also including in that:

Grabbing her against her will.
Forcing her to the ground against her will.
Restraining her hands behind her back against her will.
Forcing her into a vehicle.
Transporting her to another location against her will.
Locking her in an enclosed area against her will.
Making her submit to having her picture taken, giving pertinent information about her including but not limited to her fingerprints while under direst.
Held in a confined area until a fee is paid to secure her release.

This is what the cop did to this lady. All done illegally.

Police have the authority to make decisions that can have great impact on someone's life, up to and including ending it.
This comes with a huge responsibility to resist abusing it.

Yes, detaining is a cover all of all those things.

 

[MercyPercy]

Did they have priors? Warrants for unpaid child support? Run their mouths a little bit?


Pro tip: Be polite to cops and DONT resist arrest (aka stfu and listen) and you'll be fine.

Priors? The only priors they've had are speeding tickets. No warrants for unpaid child support, no mouth running.

So that kind of blows your little theory out of the water, though I note how badly you want to make an excuse for the police.

 

[Dr Dread]

http://youtu.be/ONvtpqksy28

Yet another cop creating some new law, then arresting someone for breaking it.

 

[davethevol]

This video is crazy. What happens when a white guy open carries an AR15 rifle, compared to what happens when a black guy does the same? Let's see.


http://youtu.be/BKGZnB41_e4

(Disclaimer)
Yes, I understand this is only one video, it doesn't speak to the fact that all cops aren't racist. The contrast is very striking to me though.

Longer 2nd test video here.

http://youtu.be/RhSH928N9b8

The problem with these is we don't know what someone said when they called dispatch. Maybe the person calling it in said they were threatened or the guy was waving it around. I'm huge supporter of 2nd Amendment rights, but these idiots walking around with rifles in public are just trying to instigate things. If a cop wants to check out the situation, that shouldn't be an issue. In fact, we should be glad that they are actually going into a situation where someone is armed.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The problem with these is we don't know what someone said when they called dispatch. Maybe the person calling it in said they were threatened or the guy was waving it around. I'm huge supporter of 2nd Amendment rights, but these idiots walking around with rifles in public are just trying to instigate things. If a cop wants to check out the situation, that shouldn't be an issue. In fact, we should be glad that they are actually going into a situation where someone is armed.

I could understand cops being more cautious in this case than I could 2 women arguing in a parking lot.

And if this is the same video that I saw two weeks ago, they blended 2 videos of 3-4 white guys walking down the street armed from several years ago with a video of a black man recently. Not really a fair experiment, imo.

 

[Dr Dread]

Yes, detaining is a cover all of all those things.

The question now is what should happen to the officer involved.

An illegal arrest is tantamount to kidnapping. Should he face criminal charges? I don't believe so. Given the nature of the job police are asked to do, I believe that they deserve certain protections against prosecution when the situation lacks the intent to do wrong. In this case, it appeared the cop showed poor judgement, and a lack of understanding of applicable law, but did not appear to be intentionally seeking to violate the woman's rights.

I do believe he should face severe disciplinary action, up to and including loss of employment.

Sad thing is, from what I can see from the video, he does not appear to be a bad cop. He just made a bad mistake.

The reality is good employees are fired everyday over one bad mistake. That's the a business or organization sets and maintains certain standards.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

http://youtu.be/ONvtpqksy28

Yet another cop creating some new law, then arresting someone for breaking it.

The window was sufficiently open enough to where he could give her the citation.

If cops are this scared to hand out tickets then maybe they need to pick another profession or just stop engaging in these petty traffic stops. I mean damn, they already have it being the law that you can't have dark tint on your windows, now we are supposed to roll the window all the way down for those gibronis, also?

The cop that broke the window should be fired.