To Protect and to Serve...

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#2,776
#2,776
n_huffhines said:
Do you have anything to support this? All I've ever read is that it endangers the lives of cops. Most criminals don't want a shootout with police, so there is no point from a safety perspective. I have read of several cases in which cops invade homes of innocents or people that would otherwise surrender and they kill cops because they think they are home intruders. The method endangers cops, IMO.

How does it protect innocent bystanders?

The preservation of evidence is the only pro, IMO. As MPD chief Jerry Wilson once said (paraphrasing) "who cares if they flush evidence? the objective is to get drugs off the street and if they're down the toilet, then they're off the street."

I'm OK with no-knock raids for most violent offenders.
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A covert no knock can protect officers by not allowing any reaction time to a entry and assault. Depending on the method used (and tools like distraction devices) it can catch the occupants off guard and out of position. It's still risky, but can give the advantage of surprise to the entry team(s). And if they get a 1-3 second advantage, that's really all they need if, and only if, surprise is achieved from the start.

The problem lies in when surprise is lost. Say when an entry team has to search a facility for the suspects. That's when it becomes far more risky for officers and bystanders. A lot of these raids have to go room to room looking for the suspects and they give up that reaction time. And if the team gets caught in a fatal funnel, like a hallway for example, that's when they get injured or dead.

And safer for innocent bystanders is taken into account if the suspects manage to escape the cordon set up or if they are taken in an open air assault. Take the North Hollywood Shootout for example. Or the 1986 Miami shootout. The bystanders were in jeopardy since errant gunfire (from both sides of the equation) can cause unintended damage. But if you can limit it to a single facility, cordon it of and wait them out, it serves to be safer for all concerned.

I fully support no-knocks for hostage rescue/kidnapping victims and times where there is indisputable proof that the suspects will (not can) cause death to officers or innocent bystanders. For drug related offenses...not so sure unless one of the above conditions is met.
 
#2,777
#2,777
Yeah, I think we agree. In cases where the target is willing to shoot at police, it makes them safer.

In every other case it creates a lot more danger, IMO. The problem is no knock is the default for any kind of target, it seems. In 2011 there were 80,000 no knocks. When they were approved as a method it was intended for limited use. In the 80s there were typically 2,000-3,000 per year. That's the problem with government, whether it's law enforcement or elected representatives...give them an inch, and they take a mile.
 
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#2,778
#2,778
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, I think we agree. In cases where the target is willing to shoot at police, it makes them safer.

In every other case it creates a lot more danger, IMO. The problem is no knock is the default for any kind of target, it seems. In 2011 there were 80,000 no knocks. When they were approved as a method it was intended for limited use. In the 80s there were typically 2,000-3,000 per year. That's the problem with government, whether it's law enforcement or elected representatives...give them an inch, and they take a mile.
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I agree they have become overused. But I tend to disagree with some on here that there is never any call for them. There is a place and time, but again, better controls need to be put in place for approval.
 
#2,780
#2,780
Grand Vol said:
A covert no knock can protect officers by not allowing any reaction time to a entry and assault. Depending on the method used (and tools like distraction devices) it can catch the occupants off guard and out of position. It's still risky, but can give the advantage of surprise to the entry team(s). And if they get a 1-3 second advantage, that's really all they need if, and only if, surprise is achieved from the start.

The problem lies in when surprise is lost. Say when an entry team has to search a facility for the suspects. That's when it becomes far more risky for officers and bystanders. A lot of these raids have to go room to room looking for the suspects and they give up that reaction time. And if the team gets caught in a fatal funnel, like a hallway for example, that's when they get injured or dead.

And safer for innocent bystanders is taken into account if the suspects manage to escape the cordon set up or if they are taken in an open air assault. Take the North Hollywood Shootout for example. Or the 1986 Miami shootout. The bystanders were in jeopardy since errant gunfire (from both sides of the equation) can cause unintended damage. But if you can limit it to a single facility, cordon it of and wait them out, it serves to be safer for all concerned.

I fully support no-knocks for hostage rescue/kidnapping victims and times where there is indisputable proof that the suspects will (not can) cause death to officers or innocent bystanders. For drug related offenses...not so sure unless one of the above conditions is met.
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Why not arrest them when they are in broad daylight? David Koresh could have been arrested just as easily.
 
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#2,781
#2,781
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why not arrest them when they are in broad daylight? David Koresh could have been arrested just as easily.
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Depending on situation, that can be done. Depends on who the suspect is, where they are, a lot of different things.

The Branch Davidian raid was obviously a screw up from the word go. You can thank the ATF for that one.
 
#2,782
#2,782
Montana lawmakers pitch 80, 85 mph on interstates - Houston Chronicle

State Rep. Mike Miller, R-Helmville, and state Rep.-elect Art Wittich, R-Bozeman, both said Utah, Wyoming and Idaho all have raised their speed limits above 75 and they haven't seen any problems as a result.
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Pig should have just kept his mouth closed without stating the obvious.

Montana Highway Patrol Col. Tom Butler declined to comment on the bills until he has a chance to see them, but he told the Missoulian that driving faster reduces reaction time and makes stopping more difficult.
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#2,784
#2,784
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, I think we agree. In cases where the target is willing to shoot at police, it makes them safer.

In every other case it creates a lot more danger, IMO. The problem is no knock is the default for any kind of target, it seems. In 2011 there were 80,000 no knocks. When they were approved as a method it was intended for limited use. In the 80s there were typically 2,000-3,000 per year. That's the problem with government, whether it's law enforcement or elected representatives...give them an inch, and they take a mile.
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There is no way in hell someone has an accurate statisitic on no knock search warrants. None.
 
#2,786
#2,786
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why not arrest them when they are in broad daylight? David Koresh could have been arrested just as easily.
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Did this from time to time. However, in more dangerous situations it is usually better to have them confined inside their home instead of needlessly endangering the public.
 
#2,787
#2,787
tim said:
Did this from time to time. However, in more dangerous situations it is usually better to have them confined inside their home instead of needlessly endangering the public.
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Edit: And relly? Using Koresh as an example of the norm is silly.
 
#2,788
#2,788
1 out of 3 cops actually was cool and had a sense of humor. The other 2, even after the fact, wanted to be jerks and throw guys in jail. Pigs...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY4HObQw5Go[/youtube]
 
#2,793
#2,793
tim said:
Don't know, I'll ask, what entity keeps up with such statistics?
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Another reason we should have private police forces. I guarantee you they would keep meticulous records of this sort for liability reasons or they'd risk going out of business from losing legal suits.
 
#2,794
#2,794
n_huffhines said:
So this exists:

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids | Cato Institute
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I know you said "this exists", and it's pretty comical. Did you read any of the "incidents". I don't beleive you're pointing to this heaping bowl of crap to give an accurate account of how many no knock raids are conducted, but it does tell me you're trying to find something. Which you won't.

Also, This pushpin map shows cases dating back more than a decade. I was entertained by what the inventor of this study considers the death of a "nonviolent" offender. There are very few on the map, albeit one is too many, but in at least some of the incidents the offender was armed or had access to weaponry. The other ones are just totally hilarious rantings of a leftist liberal agenda driven group of mamby pamby tree huggers.
 
#2,795
#2,795
n_huffhines said:
Another reason we should have private police forces. I guarantee you they would keep meticulous records of this sort for liability reasons or they'd risk going out of business from losing legal suits.
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Losing legal battles and settling are two different arguments, but yes.. I agree a civilian police force would keep better records, but they are only as good as their leaders.. As you know private companies are notorious for cooking the books. So all in all the system we have, imperfect as it may be, is about the best in the world and getting better.
 
#2,796
#2,796
tim said:
I know you said "this exists", and it's pretty comical. Did you read any of the "incidents". I don't beleive you're pointing to this heaping bowl of crap to give an accurate account of how many no knock raids are conducted, but it does tell me you're trying to find something. Which you won't.

Also, This pushpin map shows cases dating back more than a decade. I was entertained by what the inventor of this study considers the death of a "nonviolent" offender. There are very few on the map, albeit one is too many, but in at least some of the incidents the offender was armed or had access to weaponry. The other ones are just totally hilarious rantings of a leftist liberal agenda driven group of mamby pamby tree huggers.
Click to expand...

Just so we're clear, you are arguing a post with data that was given no interpretation. You would argue with a fence post.
 
#2,797
#2,797
tim said:
Losing legal battles and settling are two different arguments, but yes.. I agree a civilian police force would keep better records, but they are only as good as their leaders.. As you know private companies are notorious for cooking the books. So all in all the system we have, imperfect as it may be, is about the best in the world and getting better.
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So is government. My sheriff in Cedar City, UT went down for that.

Judge Douglas Cornaby also restarted Benson's probation, sentencing him to six months of home confinement -- the same sentence Benson faced in November, when he was ordered to pay more than $18,700 restitution and $2,000 in fines for misuse of public money and obstruction of justice.
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Dude Benson, Former Sheriff , Sent to Jail | KSL.com
 
#2,800
#2,800
n_huffhines said:
Just so we're clear, you are arguing a post with data that was given no interpretation. You would argue with a fence post.
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No, Im pointing out the ridiculousness of the study that you, a notorious anti police individual, posted. Posted on the heels of me asking you who kept up with statistics regarding sw's issued in the US. Also, pointing out that you posted this probably knowing how ridiculous it is, but since it jived with your stance you threw it out there.
 
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