To Protect and to Serve...

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#2,701
#2,701
tim said:
Because their problem usually ends up being my problem. Their use/abuse wont end if legalization occurs. Also, peoples lives being "ruined" over a petty arrest is their problem. What concens me are the victims created by the "ruined" ones when they decide to take what is not theirs. Generally speaking people do NOT go to jail over a simple possession offense and are usually eligible for expungement. Its the chronic criminal who chooses to continue breaking the law that ends up in prison. I hear this argument all the time about our prisons being full of small time drug dealers and its simply not true. Our prisons are full of people who are chronic criminals.
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At the end of the day, you cannot regulate human action. Try as you might, lord knows they've tried, and failed utterly.
This whole thing is about revenue, it's just that simple. Its not about rehabilitation, as it's said. When someone is sent to prison for a crime, rarely if ever are they rehabilitated.

What needs to be looked at is possibly decriminalizing the substance and target actions under the influence of the substance.
All we are doing now is chasing our own tail. It's never gonna stop, I'm not sure the government actually wants it to. The drug war is very profitable to the government.
 
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#2,702
#2,702
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
The drug war is very profitable to the government.
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I have to ask...isn't one of the oft cited (arguably most cited) criticisms with "the war on drugs" how it's just a big wast of money? If that's true then there's something that needs reconciled with your above observation.
 
#2,703
#2,703
hndog609 said:
I have to ask...isn't one of the oft cited (arguably most cited) criticisms with "the war on drugs" how it's just a big wast of money? If that's true then there's something that needs reconciled with your above observation.
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The government is going to get theirs no matter what. That's all they care about. Right now, the status quo is them making their bread off the drug war through prison system subsidies, civil asset forfeiture, fines, etc. They're making money off the misery of others committing nonviolent crimes.

Ending the drug war and legalizing and taxing them would earn them even more money, without having the process rooted in destroying the lives of innocent Americans. The main opponents against legalization in Washington are prison, big pharma, and law enforcement lobbies. They know legalization would hit their pocketbooks hard, and I say, **** them. They're trying to perpetuate an ineffective and unjust system that ruins lives in order to make a profit.
 
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#2,704
#2,704
MercyPercy said:
The government is going to get theirs no matter what. That's all they care about. Right now, the status quo is them making their bread off the drug war through prison system subsidies, civil asset forfeiture, fines, etc. They're making money off the misery of others committing nonviolent crimes.

Ending the drug war and legalizing and taxing them would earn them even more money, without having the process rooted in destroying the lives of innocent Americans. The main opponents against legalization in Washington are prison, big pharma, and law enforcement lobbies. They know legalization would hit their pocketbooks hard, and I say, **** them. They're trying to perpetuate an ineffective and unjust system that ruins lives in order to make a profit.
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Exactly.
 
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#2,705
#2,705
MercyPercy said:
The government is going to get theirs no matter what. That's all they care about. Right now, the status quo is them making their bread off the drug war through prison system subsidies, civil asset forfeiture, fines, etc. They're making money off the misery of others committing nonviolent crimes.
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The above really doesn't actually address my original question, which is an honest attempt to ascertain a specific nugget of truth. Is the government actually in the black regarding the war on drugs or, as I've heard argued all the time, is it a massive waste of money?

For the moment let's set aside the social aspects and stick to the hard economics. I'm FAR more familiar with claims of outlandish costs than money actually being made.
 
#2,706
#2,706
hndog609 said:
The above really doesn't actually address my original question, which is an honest attempt to ascertain a specific nugget of truth. Is the government actually in the black regarding the war on drugs or, as I've heard argued all the time, is it a massive waste of money?

For the moment let's set aside the social aspects and stick to the hard economics. I'm FAR more familiar with claims of outlandish costs than money actually being made.
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10 Ways the War on Drugs is a Wild Success « AnthonyColpo
Interesting read.
 
#2,707
#2,707
hndog609 said:
The above really doesn't actually address my original question, which is an honest attempt to ascertain a specific nugget of truth. Is the government actually in the black regarding the war on drugs or, as I've heard argued all the time, is it a massive waste of money?

For the moment let's set aside the social aspects and stick to the hard economics. I'm FAR more familiar with claims of outlandish costs than money actually being made.
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I would argue the money they make getting in bed with the lobbies and companies to continue the war on drugs in unsustainable in the long run. So in the grand scheme of things, it is a huge waste of money. It's a continuous cycle of profiting from the drug war and reinvesting that money in funding police departments with that money specifically to use in continuing the drug war.

Not even getting into how we as taxpayers pay for this huge percentage of nonviolent offenders to sit in prison.
 
#2,711
#2,711
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
At the end of the day, you cannot regulate human action. Try as you might, lord knows they've tried, and failed utterly.
This whole thing is about revenue, it's just that simple. Its not about rehabilitation, as it's said. When someone is sent to prison for a crime, rarely if ever are they rehabilitated.

What needs to be looked at is possibly decriminalizing the substance and target actions under the influence of the substance.
All we are doing now is chasing our own tail. It's never gonna stop, I'm not sure the government actually wants it to. The drug war is very profitable to the government.
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You can't label LE's efforts as a failure because the prisons are full. It's a success without a victory dance. Instead of viewing the laws as the failure you should consider that humanity is severely flawed. As long as there have been humans, criminals have existed. Left unchecked you have no order.

Why did the "government" feel the need to begin this "war"?
 
#2,712
#2,712
tim said:
You can't label LE's efforts as a failure because the prisons are full. It's a success without a victory dance. Instead of viewing the laws as the failure you should consider that humanity is severely flawed. As long as there have been humans, criminals have existed. Left unchecked you have no order.

Why did the "government" feel the need to begin this "war"?
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You'll have to ask tricky dick about that one.
 
#2,713
#2,713
hndog609 said:
I'd always thought this was the case that would have gotten the attention, not the Brown case. The whole thing looks much worse IMO. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they were trying to sell the "just a kid" angle with Brown.
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Could've been, but I think it had more to do with the witness who said his hands were up and it happened in the middle of the street in the middle of the day.
 
#2,715
#2,715
tim said:
You can't label LE's efforts as a failure because the prisons are full. It's a success without a victory dance. Instead of viewing the laws as the failure you should consider that humanity is severely flawed. As long as there have been humans, criminals have existed. Left unchecked you have no order.

Why did the "government" feel the need to begin this "war"?
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Oh the cops have done a fine job arresting people for victimless crimes. At some point we have to ask ourselves, is it worth it? Is it worth all the hassle to keep someone from themselves. I don't think so.
People should be free to make their own choices, good or bad. Those same people should also be brave enough to deal with the consequences good or bad. No law will stop anyone.
 
#2,716
#2,716
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Interesting the emergency workers were suspended without pay, while the officers were just put on desk duty.
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The Union is way too strong in northern cities. It's almost impossible to fire a bad union worker, cop or otherwise. In this case he acted outside of policy by performing the choke hold and unless it was a life or death situation it should not have been applied.
 
#2,717
#2,717
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Oh the cops have done a fine job arresting people for victimless crimes. At some point we have to ask ourselves, is it worth it? Is it worth all the hassle to keep someone from themselves. I don't think so.
People should be free to make their own choices, good or bad. Those same people should also be brave enough to deal with the consequences good or bad. No law will stop anyone.
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Fundamentally, we disagree. The crime is not victimless as you and others argue, imo. Every life matters.. lol. But, seriously, addiction is a health/mental health issue that generally is going to cost taxpayers. Also, treatment is generally something that addicts do involuntarily. Also, it's not generally the use of drugs that has someone end up in prison it's the byproduct of the use of drugs.
 
#2,718
#2,718
tim said:
Fundamentally, we disagree. The crime is not victimless as you and others argue, imo. Every life matters.. lol. But, seriously, addiction is a health/mental health issue that generally is going to cost taxpayers. Also, treatment is generally something that addicts do involuntarily. Also, it's not generally the use of drugs that has someone end up in prison it's the byproduct of the use of drugs.
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Alright, we're getting somewhere here. I agree, it's the byproduct of the drug that should be, and is, criminal.
In today's society we view crime completely the opposite way as we should. A crime is committed against a person or property, not because you have a substance in your pocket. The way it should be looked at imo, if there is no victim, there is no crime. One cannot commit a crime against him/her self.

Now, when that person violates a person or property that's when the cops should pounce.
 
#2,719
#2,719
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Alright, we're getting somewhere here. I agree, it's the byproduct of the drug that should be, and is, criminal.
In today's society we view crime completely the opposite way as we should. A crime is committed against a person or property, not because you have a substance in your pocket. The way it should be looked at imo, if there is no victim, there is no crime. One cannot commit a crime against him/her self.

Now, when that person violates a person or property that's when the cops should pounce.
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And here is where you're wrong. There are always victims. Whether direct or indirect, it affects more than just the person with the substance in their pocket.
 
#2,721
#2,721
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I'm wrong in your opinion though.
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So that substance just magically appears in their pocket? A family isn't suffering because of a habit forming substance? A child isn't born with deformities because a mother continued to use while they were pregnant?

A dealer isn't out extorting the system to bring it to market?

A supplier isn't breaking our national boundaries to bring it to the dealer?

A manufacturer isn't destroying lives and killing innocents just to be able to stay on top of the game?

The cause and effect is well known. And there is no such thing as a victimless crime in this case.
 
#2,722
#2,722
Photo of Cop Hugging Boy at Ferguson Protest Tells Poignant Story

ht_ferguson_protest_hug_devonte_hart_jc_141128_16x9_992.jpg
 
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#2,723
#2,723
Grand Vol said:
So that substance just magically appears in their pocket? A family isn't suffering because of a habit forming substance? A child isn't born with deformities because a mother continued to use while they were pregnant?

A dealer isn't out extorting the system to bring it to market?

A supplier isn't breaking our national boundaries to bring it to the dealer?

A manufacturer isn't destroying lives and killing innocents just to be able to stay on top of the game?

The cause and effect is well known. And there is no such thing as a victimless crime in this case.
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Please cite to me where any of this is the problem of the government.

You cannot keep people from themselves, to try to do so is a very foolish and leads to despotism. As we see with the drug war today.

Of course you realize a great number (not sure of number) of addicts want to get clean, they just fear the wrath of the state.
 
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#2,724
#2,724
Grand Vol said:
So that substance just magically appears in their pocket? A family isn't suffering because of a habit forming substance? A child isn't born with deformities because a mother continued to use while they were pregnant?

A dealer isn't out extorting the system to bring it to market?

A supplier isn't breaking our national boundaries to bring it to the dealer?

A manufacturer isn't destroying lives and killing innocents just to be able to stay on top of the game?

The cause and effect is well known. And there is no such thing as a victimless crime in this case.
Click to expand...

It is funny that you brought up extortion though.
 
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