To Protect and to Serve...

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#929
#929
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#936
#936
GoBigOrangeUT said:
You're not the one I figured would defend it. You will speak out against LEO occasionally.
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I don't see anyone that would defend it.

Contrary to popular belief, cops can actually think objectively about things and blame their own kind when they are wrong.
 
#939
#939
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
Can't wait to see tim defend the actions of the cops on this one.
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Will you find an incident that I have condoned? I simply reserve judgement and base my opinions on the incident not an entire profession. Sometimes....Sometimes, the news has a tad bit of bias.. Of course some of us are willing to use common sense and see that not everyone is bad and not everyone is good.
 
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#941
#941
hog88 said:
They are related because both are unnecessary and often result in innocents being harmed. Sad you cannot understand.
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Still a straw man knee jerk reaction and as I hava already stated I have personally never had a negative incident on a no knock. However, I do recognize the potential for something to go wrong, just like every time I drive down the road. I simply do not ascribe to drawing conclusions by simplifying something down to the lowest common denominator. If humans are involved there is a potential for mistakes. If I were to use a straw man argument in your profession I could argue that all truckers are meth using rednecks who haul drugs for cartels, wouldnt that be silly?
 
#942
#942
tim said:
Still a straw man knee jerk reaction and as I hava already stated I have personally never had a negative incident on a no knock. However, I do recognize the potential for something to go wrong, just like every time I drive down the road. I simply do not ascribe to drawing conclusions by simplifying something down to the lowest common denominator. If humans are involved there is a potential for mistakes. If I were to use a straw man argument in your profession I could argue that all truckers are meth using rednecks who haul drugs for cartels, wouldnt that be silly?
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So, wait a minute... You compare no-knock warrants to driving down the road, while not ascribing to simplification down to the lowest common denominator. That seems more than ironic.

Let me make this clear... You are not at liberty to shoot my dog, potentially shoot my kid, shoot me, kick my door in-- usually planned and implemented at night, and usually at bedtime-- then arrest me for shooting back in self defense, while simply driving down the street. And the dangers of this happening to the wrong family don't hinge on whether you just happen to turn one road too soon.
 
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#943
#943
tim said:
Still a straw man knee jerk reaction and as I hava already stated I have personally never had a negative incident on a no knock. However, I do recognize the potential for something to go wrong, just like every time I drive down the road. I simply do not ascribe to drawing conclusions by simplifying something down to the lowest common denominator. If humans are involved there is a potential for mistakes. If I were to use a straw man argument in your profession I could argue that all truckers are meth using rednecks who haul drugs for cartels, wouldn't that be silly?
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Oh, and... I am happy that you have never personally had an incident on a no-knock. Praise God for you and the countless children you may have terrorized.

But the increasing frequency of no-knock warrants, and the way they are intentionally planned, is staggering. And the alarming number of no-knock-gone-horribly-wrong speaks a greater tale than your personal anecdotes.

No-knocks are designed primarily for the safety of law enforcement. They are a surprise attack to minimize the danger of deadly response from those being forcibly entered upon. Well I have news from you, and I don't want this to sound calloused... I have loved ones who are police officers. I want no harm to any of you, and have tremendous respect and gratitude. But I must also add...

You signed up for it. You signed up for the job. You signed up for guns and Kevlar and conflict and perps and the rushing thrill of the capture. That family did not. That little girl that awakens to armed intruders brandishing carbines and shotguns, with masks on and helmets, screaming and cursing and shooting her dog...

She didn't sign up for it.

Those families that you forcibly intrude on wearing masks, and the rest of it, screaming and aiming your carbines at... But the families that live one door over and you just read the wrong number, but shot their dog anyway...

They didn't sign up for it.

There should be absolutely no law that enables that to happen even once, for the sole sake of the ones who signed up for it, and royally eff it up too many times anyway.
 
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#944
#944
Orange_Crush said:
Oh, and... I am happy that you have never personally had an incident on a no-knock. Praise God for you and the countless children you may have terrorized.

But the increasing frequency of no-knock warrants, and the way they are intentionally planned, is staggering. And the alarming number of no-knock-gone-horribly-wrong speaks a greater tale than your personal anecdotes.

No-knocks are designed primarily for the safety of law enforcement. They are a surprise attack to minimize the danger of deadly response from those being forcibly entered upon. Well I have news from you, and I don't want this to sound calloused... I have loved ones who are police officers. I want no harm to any of you, and have tremendous respect and gratitude. But I must also add...

You signed up for it. You signed up for the job. You signed up for guns and Kevlar and conflict and perps and the rushing thrill of the capture. That family did not. That little girl that awakens to armed intruders brandishing carbines and shotguns, with masks on and helmets, screaming and cursing and shooting her dog...

She didn't sign up for it.

Those families that you forcibly intrude on wearing masks, and the rest of it, screaming and aiming your carbines at... But the families that live one door over and you just read the wrong number, but shot their dog anyway...

They didn't sign up for it.

There should be absolutely no law that enables that to happen even once, for the sole sake of the ones who signed up for it, and royally eff it up too many times anyway.
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Lol. Nobody signs up to get shot. Its a possibility, but through training and preparation the chance is hopefully minimized. The argument that LEO's sign up to get shot just tells me everything I need to know about you.
 
#945
#945
tim said:
Lol. Nobody signs up to get shot. Its a possibility, but through training and preparation the chance is hopefully minimized. The argument that LEO's sign up to get shot just tells me everything I need to know about you.
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If that's what you took from my post, then that says a lot about you. That's a huge lulz, coming from the guy screaming about straw men.

Thank you for your service. Knock before you enter, stop terrorizing children, and leave Ole Yeller alone.
 
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#946
#946
tim said:
Lol. Nobody signs up to get shot. Its a possibility, but through training and preparation the chance is hopefully minimized. The argument that LEO's sign up to get shot just tells me everything I need to know about you.
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Come on Tim. No knocks have their place but you have to admit they're becoming too common place over more and more petty stuff.
 
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#947
#947
CNCVol88 said:
Come on Tim. No knocks have their place but you have to admit they're becoming too common place over more and more petty stuff.
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No clue if their usage has spiked. Not sure there is any way of keeping up with the numbers. You have to understand the premis behind knock and announce vs no knock. Knock and announce, to my knowledge, has never specified a paricular amount of time one has to wait before entry. Iirc the wording leaves it up to the officer. I think its something like "a reasonable time". I have literally seen the ram swinging back as officers announced. Would it really have changed anything if they had not announced?
 
#948
#948
tim said:
No clue if their usage has spiked. Not sure there is any way of keeping up with the numbers. You have to understand the premis behind knock and announce vs no knock. Knock and announce, to my knowledge, has never specified a paricular amount of time one has to wait before entry. Iirc the wording leaves it up to the officer. I think its something like "a reasonable time". I have literally seen the ram swinging back as officers announced. Would it really have changed anything if they had not announced?
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But it also goes back to what I said a few days ago about the perceived risk associated with no knocks. The threat is often way overblown and this is the justification that is used to use a tactical team and no knock versus a couple of detectives with some marked cars backing them up.
 
#949
#949
Orange_Crush said:
If that's what you took from my post, then that says a lot about you. That's a huge lulz, coming from the guy screaming about straw men.

Thank you for your service. Knock before you enter, stop terrorizing children, and leave Ole Yeller alone.
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As long as bad guys have children they will continue to put their own kids in harms way. Long before and after LEO contact. You certainaly are not too blind to know this. Also, I'm not sure you understand the straw man argument. When someone uses an example to show a straw man argument it is merely an example. Keep on keeping on though.
 
#950
#950
Grand Vol said:
But it also goes back to what I said a few days ago about the perceived risk associated with no knocks. The threat is often way overblown and this is the justification that is used to use a tactical team and no knock versus a couple of detectives with some marked cars backing them up.
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And if I had seen this post I would generally agree, but not always. I have seen several ka warrants executed that I wished were nk's and the other way around. I've executed sw's by myself, hell I've even faxed them (showing my age here). This thought that all nk's need to be banned would not be a wise decision. Perhaps, the judges should have a standard guideline for allowing them.
 
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