To Protect and to Serve...

[jp1]

Before or after they were video taped repeatedly beating a woman from a full guard position?

Marlene Pinnock, Woman In California Highway Patrol Beating Case, Reaches Settlement

My bad Sam. Didn't realize we could only post the bad stuff. But to answer your question, based on the dates, I would say after.

 

[lawgator1]

It is not interesting to talk about the tens of thousands of police interactions that happen every day that are purely professional and helpful to people.

 

[SamRebel35]

My bad Sam. Didn't realize we could only post the bad stuff. But to answer your question, based on the dates, I would say after.

You can post the good stuff. It does not cancel out the bad stuff, though. If I design 100 buildings that are great and in perfect order, but then I design 1 that falls down and kills 20 people, will I get credit for all the good ones I designed?

 

[hog88]

It is not interesting to talk about the tens of thousands of police interactions that happen every day that are purely professional and helpful to people.

Tens of thousands daily that are "helpful"?

 

[SamRebel35]

It is not interesting to talk about the tens of thousands of police interactions that happen every day that are purely professional and helpful to people.

It isn't interesting to hear about garbage men picking up trash. Or sandwich makers making sandwiches. Or farmers farming. What is interesting is when the garbage man backs somebody over with his truck. And when the sandwich maker uses tainted pork and gives somebody food poisoning. And when the farmer uses an outlawed pesticide that kills a huge population of birds or fish.

 

[jp1]

You can post the good stuff. It does not cancel out the bad stuff, though. If I design 100 buildings that are great and in perfect order, but then I design 1 that falls down and kills 20 people, will I get credit for all the good ones I designed?

Again, my bad. I will edit my post where it said it cancelled out the bad stuff. Im relatively new to the politics forum so I'm still learning.

 

[lawgator1]

Tens of thousands daily that are "helpful"?

Yes. You are not accounting for wellness checks, taking reports of stolen property or other crimes, managing traffic, preventing crimes, etc.

It isn't interesting to hear about garbage men picking up trash. Or sandwich makers making sandwiches. Or farmers farming. What is interesting is when the garbage man backs somebody over with his truck. And when the sandwich maker uses tainted pork and gives somebody food poisoning. And when the farmer uses an outlawed pesticide that kills a huge population of birds or fish.

Those things rarely caught on video and used to typify all of their colleagues as brutish thugs.

 

[SamRebel35]

Yes. You are not accounting for wellness checks, taking reports of stolen property or other crimes, managing traffic, preventing crimes, etc.





Those things rarely caught on video and used to typify all of their colleagues as brutish thugs.

Well, when the proportions become as ominous as they are in law enforcement, they will likely be filmed. The difference will be, the perpetrators will not be able to receive paid administrative leave while a sham of an investigation is conducted to ultimately clear them of everything. That plus jail time or other punitive measures.

 

[lawgator1]

Well, when the proportions become as ominous as they are in law enforcement, they will likely be filmed. The difference will be, the perpetrators will not be able to receive paid administrative leave while a sham of an investigation is conducted to ultimately clear them of everything. That plus jail time or other punitive measures.

All well and good .... until no one wants to do the job.

 

[hog88]

Yes. You are not accounting for wellness checks, taking reports of stolen property or other crimes, managing traffic, preventing crimes, etc.





Those things rarely caught on video and used to typify all of their colleagues as brutish thugs.

Since (just a guess) that 80-90% of stolen property is never recovered, I wouldn't place that in the helpful category. More of the going through the motions side of the job.

Managing Traffic? Just what is that?

Wellness check? Again what is that?

Police rarely ever prevent a crime.

 

[hog88]

All well and good .... until no one wants to do the job.

We still have people who pump septic tanks, so there will always be someone who wants the job.

 

[lawgator1]

Since (just a guess) that 80-90% of stolen property is never recovered, I wouldn't place that in the helpful category. More of the going through the motions side of the job.


Ummm .... insurance claims?

Managing Traffic? Just what is that?

Preventing some jackass from running into the back of you when your car stalls. Preventing people from going 90 in a 30 mph school zone as third graders exit. Directing traffic around an accident scene. Taking the report of an accident from drivers. Shall I continue?


Wellness check? Again what is that?

You haven't seen your elderly neighbor for 2 days. You haven't heard from your sick grandmother for a week. Who do you call to go check and make sure everything is okay?

Police rarely ever prevent a crime.

That's probably the dumbest thing I have ever read here.

They aren't perfect. They get tunnel vision. They have bad days. They make mistakes, sometimes really bad ones. And I'm all for anything that will reasonably help prevent that from happening.

 

[hog88]

They aren't perfect. They get tunnel vision. They have bad days. They make mistakes, sometimes really bad ones. And I'm all for anything that will reasonably help prevent that from happening.

Please explain how they prevent crimes? They may delay some crimes but prevent, I don't think they prevent many.

Ok, reasonable explanations on the rest of them.

 

[Grand Vol]

Please explain how they prevent crimes? They may delay some crimes but prevent, I don't think they prevent many.

Ok, reasonable explanations on the rest of them.

You're hateful this morning Hog.

For your hatred, I sentence you to having a Nikki Minaj sized be-hind and having to listen to Meghan Trainor's "All About that Bass" for 24 hours straight.

 

[YorkVol]

Yes. You are not accounting for wellness checks, taking reports of stolen property or other crimes, managing traffic, preventing crimes, etc.





Those things rarely caught on video and used to typify all of their colleagues as brutish thugs.

Food Inc? Anti-GMO groups? McDonalds pink slime news reports? Seems "farmers farming" and "sandwich makers" get a lot of press, much of it bad, not all of it deserved. Just like the police.

What should be concerning to those who give our law enforcement unquestioned loyalty is how many conservative, white males are starting to ask questions about what is going on. If a guy like me (White, middle class, conservative, retired Army LTC, professional Corp Security Manager who works directly with the police and the son of a retired military police officer), thinks there are some problems, then perhaps there are some problems. Our LE community friends are only doing themselves a disservice if they continue to ignore the issues that are apparent to people outside of that community.

The police have a terribly difficult job to do, there is no doubt. And, across our country, there good police offices doing good work every day. But, there are enough things going wrong, and often with deadly consequences, that we should be asking some hard questions. What has changed? Did we change our recruiting processes? Did we change our training? Have there been policy changes that make the use of deadly force an easier choice somehow?

These questions need to be asked in the open, in a constructive apolitical dialogue. Police need to open themselves up to outside scrutiny and be willing to allow outsiders to see how they hold themselves accountable.

But, there is the rub, we can't have constructive, apolitical dialogues in this country anymore, can we?

 

[hog88]

You're hateful this morning Hog.

For your hatred, I sentence you to having a Nikki Minaj sized be-hind and having to listen to Meghan Trainor's "All About that Bass" for 24 hours straight.

Can I just take a beating instead?

 

[lawgator1]

Food Inc? Anti-GMO groups? McDonalds pink slime news reports? Seems "farmers farming" and "sandwich makers" get a lot of press, much of it bad, not all of it deserved. Just like the police.

What should be concerning to those who give our law enforcement unquestioned loyalty is how many conservative, white males are starting to ask questions about what is going on. If a guy like me (White, middle class, conservative, retired Army LTC, professional Corp Security Manager who works directly with the police and the son of a retired military police officer), thinks there are some problems, then perhaps there are some problems. Our LE community friends are only doing themselves a disservice if they continue to ignore the issues that are apparent to people outside of that community.

The police have a terribly difficult job to do, there is no doubt. And, across our country, there good police offices doing good work every day. But, there are enough things going wrong, and often with deadly consequences, that we should be asking some hard questions. What has changed? Did we change our recruiting processes? Did we change our training? Have there been policy changes that make the use of deadly force an easier choice somehow?

These questions need to be asked in the open, in a constructive apolitical dialogue. Police need to open themselves up to outside scrutiny and be willing to allow outsiders to see how they hold themselves accountable.

But, there is the rub, we can't have constructive, apolitical dialogues in this country anymore, can we?

I think we can have that dialogue. Don't confuse people defending the police, generally, with defending them all the time. At this moment, the people getting on tv are the people on the extremes of both sides. You have the "Black Lives Matter" crowd, which will always find fault and generalize it too much in that direction, and the law and order crowd, whose answer to everything is that this wouldn't happen if people just quit crime and didn't resist officers.

Both sides can point to instances where they are correct, but if they won't admit there are others where they are incorrect, no dialogue. So if you want to have some improvement, get the true believers out of the room.

 

[Grand Vol]

Food Inc? Anti-GMO groups? McDonalds pink slime news reports? Seems "farmers farming" and "sandwich makers" get a lot of press, much of it bad, not all of it deserved. Just like the police.

What should be concerning to those who give our law enforcement unquestioned loyalty is how many conservative, white males are starting to ask questions about what is going on. If a guy like me (White, middle class, conservative, retired Army LTC, professional Corp Security Manager who works directly with the police and the son of a retired military police officer), thinks there are some problems, then perhaps there are some problems. Our LE community friends are only doing themselves a disservice if they continue to ignore the issues that are apparent to people outside of that community.

The police have a terribly difficult job to do, there is no doubt. And, across our country, there good police offices doing good work every day. But, there are enough things going wrong, and often with deadly consequences, that we should be asking some hard questions. What has changed? Did we change our recruiting processes? Did we change our training? Have there been policy changes that make the use of deadly force an easier choice somehow?

These questions need to be asked in the open, in a constructive apolitical dialogue. Police need to open themselves up to outside scrutiny and be willing to allow outsiders to see how they hold themselves accountable.

But, there is the rub, we can't have constructive, apolitical dialogues in this country anymore, can we?

I think you bring up many good points in this post. And (in an apolitical fashion) I'll offer some items I see as well.

With bad policing getting the vast majority of the press, the entire career field is getting demonized. And like you said, the vast majority out there are good cops doing a difficult job. But when an entire profession starts appearing entirely unattractive to the types of recruits you would want, how do you fix that? I see people complain on here all the time about the standards for the job and how they should be raised. And in turn, that makes it even that much harder to recruit good candidates in the profession. And combined with the constant demonization of the job, it becomes a career that is pretty radioactive to candidates that might consider it otherwise.

Now, I do agree that the hammer of God should be dropped on those that get out of line. But not held more accountable than normal citizens. The same standard across the board, period. None of this "held to a higher standard" which (again) makes the job unappealing.

 

[jp1]

Food Inc? Anti-GMO groups? McDonalds pink slime news reports? Seems "farmers farming" and "sandwich makers" get a lot of press, much of it bad, not all of it deserved. Just like the police.

What should be concerning to those who give our law enforcement unquestioned loyalty is how many conservative, white males are starting to ask questions about what is going on. If a guy like me (White, middle class, conservative, retired Army LTC, professional Corp Security Manager who works directly with the police and the son of a retired military police officer), thinks there are some problems, then perhaps there are some problems. Our LE community friends are only doing themselves a disservice if they continue to ignore the issues that are apparent to people outside of that community.

The police have a terribly difficult job to do, there is no doubt. And, across our country, there good police offices doing good work every day. But, there are enough things going wrong, and often with deadly consequences, that we should be asking some hard questions. What has changed? Did we change our recruiting processes? Did we change our training? Have there been policy changes that make the use of deadly force an easier choice somehow?

These questions need to be asked in the open, in a constructive apolitical dialogue. Police need to open themselves up to outside scrutiny and be willing to allow outsiders to see how they hold themselves accountable.

But, there is the rub, we can't have constructive, apolitical dialogues in this country anymore, can we?

Actually liked your post. Dont have a problem with what you posted.

 

[hog88]

I think you bring up many good points in this post. And (in an apolitical fashion) I'll offer some items I see as well.

With bad policing getting the vast majority of the press, the entire career field is getting demonized. And like you said, the vast majority out there are good cops doing a difficult job. But when an entire profession starts appearing entirely unattractive to the types of recruits you would want, how do you fix that? I see people complain on here all the time about the standards for the job and how they should be raised. And in turn, that makes it even that much harder to recruit good candidates in the profession. And combined with the constant demonization of the job, it becomes a career that is pretty radioactive to candidates that might consider it otherwise.

Now, I do agree that the hammer of God should be dropped on those that get out of line. But not held more accountable than normal citizens. The same standard across the board, period. None of this "held to a higher standard" which (again) makes the job unappealing.

From a person with NO law enforcement ties or experience just a few interactions, I believe a lot of the problems start with laws which take decision making out of the cops hands.

It looks like, from the outside, common sense and discretion are discouraged and the hiring practices have been tailored to find employees who are ok with that.

 

[Grand Vol]

From a person with NO law enforcement ties or experience just a few interactions, I believe a lot of the problems start with laws which take decision making out of the cops hands.

It looks like, from the outside, common sense and discretion are discouraged and the hiring practices have been tailored to find employees who are ok with that.

I'll disagree that common sense and discretion is taken out of the mix and that departments actively look for those with unquestioning loyalty to enforcing the law. Having said that to say this, I think age is a huge factor in that process. The younger guys are the ones wanting to go out and rock people's worlds. The older guys tend to be the more level headed (read lazy) ones that let you go with a wag of the naughty finger and a "don't do it again."

 

[hog88]

I'll disagree that common sense and discretion is taken out of the mix and that departments actively look for those with unquestioning loyalty to enforcing the law. Having said that to say this, I think age is a huge factor in that process. The younger guys are the ones wanting to go out and rock people's worlds. The older guys tend to be the more level headed (read lazy) ones that let you go with a wag of the naughty finger and a "don't do it again."

I completely disagree with your disagreement.

 

[YorkVol]

I think we can have that dialogue. Don't confuse people defending the police, generally, with defending them all the time. At this moment, the people getting on tv are the people on the extremes of both sides. You have the "Black Lives Matter" crowd, which will always find fault and generalize it too much in that direction, and the law and order crowd, whose answer to everything is that this wouldn't happen if people just quit crime and didn't resist officers.

Both sides can point to instances where they are correct, but if they won't admit there are others where they are incorrect, no dialogue. So if you want to have some improvement, get the true believers out of the room.

Agreed.

I think you bring up many good points in this post. And (in an apolitical fashion) I'll offer some items I see as well.

With bad policing getting the vast majority of the press, the entire career field is getting demonized. And like you said, the vast majority out there are good cops doing a difficult job. But when an entire profession starts appearing entirely unattractive to the types of recruits you would want, how do you fix that? I see people complain on here all the time about the standards for the job and how they should be raised. And in turn, that makes it even that much harder to recruit good candidates in the profession. And combined with the constant demonization of the job, it becomes a career that is pretty radioactive to candidates that might consider it otherwise.

Now, I do agree that the hammer of God should be dropped on those that get out of line. But not held more accountable than normal citizens. The same standard across the board, period. None of this "held to a higher standard" which (again) makes the job unappealing.

Regarding recruiting, I do think some things have changed beyond the image issues. I think there were unintended consequences in the psychological standards and things that get flagged on background checks such as school disciplinary records. While raising the standards may have done some good, it has also removed large portions of our population that may actually be good police. I think this is an area that needs a lot of study and refinement.

We have also developed this war zone mentality in many of our departments. The drug war and the rise of gangs across the country is a huge factor that contributes to this. But there is good evidence that community policing works well to counter those criminal enterprises, and, yet, we are very reluctant to implement community policing in our urban areas. Community policing takes longer to work and you don't have the statistics to show immediate success the way you do with fighting the street war at night. Nevertheless, the percentage of resources dedicated to "the war" vs "the community" needs to be studied closely. There would be some risks assumed early in any transition of resources, but we need to be willing as a society to take those risks recognizing the longer term benefit.

As to the equal consequences for all, I disagree (respectfully of course!). Any professional should be willing to be held to a higher standard for executing their responsibilities. If you are recruited, trained and licensed to perform a professional function, you should be expected to meet a higher standard then a layman. Doctors, lawyers, clergy, master plumbers, electricians, police, et al, know they have a responsibility that is greater then the average citizen and should willingly accept the extra scrutiny and accountability that comes with those expectations.

 

[Grand Vol]

I completely disagree with your disagreement.

Coming from an old lazy cop, you shouldn't lol

 

[hog88]

Coming from an old lazy cop, you shouldn't lol

I think I've said this before but in my experience Army MPs tended to be a notch above the civilian police. Never had an issue with an MP and they tended to play by the rules.