To Protect and to Serve II

#14,201
#14,201
Rasputin_Vol said:
Whenever cops engage in bad behavior, it can't just be dismissed as "isolated incidents" all of the time. Some times, it shows evidence of a systematic problem.


And here we go with the "vote harder" nonsense.
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So again 4 million encounters with law enforcement and people and you bring me less than 10 incidents of “examples of police tyranny” it’s not systemic at all. You refuse to see it because of your apocalyptic beliefs
 
#14,202
#14,202
Rickyvol77 said:
I don’t believe that most people are crap at all. I believe that most on here and in media assume a lot of stuff instead of fact checking or actually trying to understand the entirety of the situations. Or understanding logic, reason, law, procedure and processes and why they exist. But people usually only know anecdotal stuff and emotional feelings
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Logic and reason should trump law, procedure or process. I've consistently made that point for years.
 
#14,204
#14,204
Rickyvol77 said:
Really? So how many officers have forcibly given you a vaccine in your arm or have taken your guns?
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If told to do so, they will do it. You seem to place high importance below on health department protocols, so it wouldn't surprise me to see LEOs doing it for that very reason.

Rickyvol77 said:
Why doesn’t KCSO and KPD enforce the politicians will over mask mandates In school? Because that’s what he’s talking about. And there’s nothing illegal about recording license plates either especially as part of a health department quarantine investigation.
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And here you go with this "it isn't illegal" nonsense. Is it ethical? Is it just? For people going to church services? Really?

Rickyvol77 said:
Why doesn’t KCSO and KPD enforce the politicians will over mask mandates In school? Because that’s what he’s talking about. And there’s nothing illegal about recording license plates either especially as part of a health department quarantine investigation.
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Does the Health department have enforcement powers? I don't know, I'm asking. If so, that should be concerning to most people just as much as anything else. Or, do they rely on the police to be the enforcement arm?
 
#14,205
#14,205
Rickyvol77 said:
But you claim ignorance on why trespassing calls happen.
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I've never claimed ignorance on that. I'm fully aware why the call is made. I've argued that a lot of these calls don't need to be addressed by the police. These are matters that mostly don't (or should not) require police action or involvement. That is what I have been saying.
 
#14,206
#14,206
Rasputin_Vol said:
If told to do so, they will do it. You seem to place high importance below on health department protocols, so it wouldn't surprise me to see LEOs doing it for that very reason.


And here you go with this "it isn't illegal" nonsense. Is it ethical? Is it just? For people going to church services? Really?


Does the Health department have enforcement powers? I don't know, I'm asking. If so, that should be concerning to most people just as much as anything else. Or, do they rely on the police to be the enforcement arm?
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I wouldn’t say high importance on health dept just an understanding that if a quarantine health order exists you could be identified in a public setting. You have no expectation of privacy in public. You can argue the ethics or the order itself but it’s hardly some serious issue. The health department can issue orders and there are people right now not allowed to leave their house to go into public without being tracked and it has nothing to do with Covid
 
#14,207
#14,207
Rasputin_Vol said:
I've never claimed ignorance on that. I'm fully aware why the call is made. I've argued that a lot of these calls don't need to be addressed by the police. These are matters that mostly don't (or should not) require police action or involvement. That is what I have been saying.
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there is no one to address them. Especially in domestic violence situations
 
#14,209
#14,209
Rasputin_Vol said:
There is a scale of 1 to 10 on this, you do realize this, right? 1 being "my house guest won't put on his mask" vs 10 being "My house guest just attacked me".
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Yes but you also understand that
1) the homeowners/business owners are the ones calling police because they tried to stop the issue or make the person leave to no avail
2) domestic violence situations are unique and people involved can’t handle them themselves more often than not for lots of reasons
 
#14,210
#14,210
Rickyvol77 said:
Yes but you also understand that
1) the homeowners/business owners are the ones calling police because they tried to stop the issue or make the person leave to no avail
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I realize that. Now again. Is it a police matter of such high enough importance that the police insert themselves in a mask issue or a vaccine pass issue?

Rickyvol77 said:
2) domestic violence situations are unique and people involved can’t handle them themselves more often than not for lots of reasons
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People can't choose family, but they can choose the relationships outside of family that they are a part of. Some families fight all the time. Some families just keep their distance from each other. Some couples fight all the time and make up. Some couples continue fighting and the party (allegedly) being abused refuses to leave for whatever reason. Those are not police matters until blood is spilled or bones broken. And knowing just what I've seen in my life, some people "turn it on" once the cops show up and get a bit more animated to try to further incite a reaction for the other person.
 
#14,211
#14,211
Rasputin_Vol said:
I realize that. Now again. Is it a police matter of such high enough importance that the police insert themselves in a mask issue or a vaccine pass issue?


People can't choose family, but they can choose the relationships outside of family that they are a part of. Some families fight all the time. Some families just keep their distance from each other. Some couples fight all the time and make up. Some couples continue fighting and the party (allegedly) being abused refuses to leave for whatever reason. Those are not police matters until blood is spilled or bones broken. And knowing just what I've seen in my life, some people "turn it on" once the cops show up and get a bit more animated to try to further incite a reaction for the other person.
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Again if a person or business has someone that refuses to leave their property when asked, what is their recourse? Fight the person? There’s a reason these people call police on the first place because theses idiots cussing disturbances refuse to leave their property.

Just because some families are toxic or abuse each other doesn’t make it right. Obviously someone calls the police in those situations Including abused or scared women, men or children. To assume police should never respond to any call until someone is seriously hurt or injured is naive and simplistic thinking
 
#14,212
#14,212
Rickyvol77 said:
Again if a person or business has someone that refuses to leave their property when asked, what is their recourse? Fight the person? There’s a reason these people call police on the first place because theses idiots cussing disturbances refuse to leave their property.
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Is fighting someone a reasonable response for them not having a vaccine passport or wearing a mask?

Rickyvol77 said:
Just because some families are toxic or abuse each other doesn’t make it right.
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I didn't say it was right.

Rickyvol77 said:
Obviously someone calls the police in those situations Including abused or scared women, men or children.
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If children are in danger then obviously, that is a different situation than any of the other situations with adults involved.

Rickyvol77 said:
To assume police should never respond to any call until someone is seriously hurt or injured is naive and simplistic thinking
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Damn man, I didn't say never. I specifically went through the trouble of giving you a scale of 1 to 10 to hopefully illustrate to you what is a legitimate time for police action and what is not. Why do you jump to extremes like that to try to make a point?
 
#14,213
#14,213
Rasputin_Vol said:
Is fighting someone a reasonable response for them not having a vaccine passport or wearing a mask?

I didn't say it was right.

If children are in danger then obviously, that is a different situation than any of the other situations with adults involved.


Damn man, I didn't say never. I specifically went through the trouble of giving you a scale of 1 to 10 to hopefully illustrate to you what is a legitimate time for police action and what is not. Why do you jump to extremes like that to try to make a point?
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It’s not extremes it’s telling you reality of what happens daily. Dozens of times a day. Adults can be in danger during domestics just as much if not more than kids.
And again how do you propose someone remove someone from their property who is refusing to leave if not physically or with police?
 
#14,214
#14,214
Rickyvol77 said:
It’s not extremes it’s telling you reality of what happens daily. Dozens of times a day. Adults can be in danger during domestics just as much if not more than kids.
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If adults can call the police when they are having a domestic dispute, they could have just as easily removed themselves from the situation. If an adult can't remove themselves, then you no longer have a domestic dispute, now you have a kidnapping or a hostage situation.

Rickyvol77 said:
And again how do you propose someone remove someone from their property who is refusing to leave if not physically or with police?
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If they decide to fight it out, then they can try that. But a jury should decide if that was a reasonable approach to take. Police would serve themselves not to even come near a lot of these petty domestic disputes. It can potentially lead to bad outcomes.
 
#14,215
#14,215
Rasputin_Vol said:
If adults can call the police when they are having a domestic dispute, they could have just as easily removed themselves from the situation. If an adult can't remove themselves, then you no longer have a domestic dispute, now you have a kidnapping or a hostage situation.


If they decide to fight it out, then they can try that. But a jury should decide if that was a reasonable approach to take. Police would serve themselves not to even come near a lot of these petty domestic disputes. It can potentially lead to bad outcomes.
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That’s not how domestics work because people are irrational and emotional and can’t handle themselves more often than not in these situations.

As for the other example, if you had a pro vax person like mad arrive on your lawn and sitting on a lawn chair with a sign that says “this man is anti science” while screaming at you and your neighbors. What you would do?
 
#14,216
#14,216
Rickyvol77 said:
That’s not how domestics work because people are irrational and emotional and can’t handle themselves more often than not in these situations.
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And that is what you are going to base your case for police involvement in a bunch of these domestic issues? Emotions?

Rickyvol77 said:
As for the other example, if you had a pro vax person like mad arrive on your lawn and sitting on a lawn chair with a sign that says “this man is anti science” while screaming at you and your neighbors. What you would do?
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I would first ask him to leave and then it would likely get physical after that if they don't listen to reason. Maybe some neighbors jump in. Maybe it gets lethal. Then the police and ambulances can come and take one or both to jail and/or one or both to the hospital. Let the courts sort it out at that point.

If only we had laws in place to allow homeowners/private individuals to use the same level of lethal force on their property that the cops can use anywhere they go. But you have argued against that, also.
 
#14,217
#14,217
Rasputin_Vol said:
And that is what you are going to base your case for police involvement in a bunch of these domestic issues? Emotions?


I would first ask him to leave and then it would likely get physical after that if they don't listen to reason. Maybe some neighbors jump in. Maybe it gets lethal. Then the police and ambulances can come and take one or both to jail and/or one or both to the hospital. Let the courts sort it out at that point.

If only we had laws in place to allow homeowners/private individuals to use the same level of lethal force on their property that the cops can use anywhere they go. But you have argued against that, also.
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So why would you get violent over a mask issue just to get them off your property? See how dumb that sounds in retrospect. And there are literally thousands of incidents everyday but police deescalate or solve the issue when citizens couldn’t. But you never care about those, just the ones you disagree with the police to use force which is a very very small % of any incident.
where have I argued for homeowners not to have self defense of their property? I believe the laws and standards of self defense are pretty self explanatory whether they are police or not
 
#14,218
#14,218
Rickyvol77 said:
So why would you get violent over a mask issue just to get them off your property? See how dumb that sounds in retrospect. And there are literally thousands of incidents everyday but police deescalate or solve the issue when citizens couldn’t. But you never care about those, just the ones you disagree with the police to use force which is a very very small % of any incident.
where have I argued for homeowners not to have self defense of their property? I believe the laws and standards of self defense are pretty self explanatory whether they are police or not
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Look at the scenario you created.

sitting on a lawn chair with a sign that says “this man is anti science” while screaming at you and your neighbors.
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Also, I didn't invite this guy to my home, either.
 
#14,219
#14,219
Rasputin_Vol said:
Look at the scenario you created.



Also, I didn't invite this guy to my home, either.
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So what? You think some movie theater invited anti mask people to protest and disrupt their business? Private property is private property and you can ask anyone to leave at any time for any reason. No one has a right to do whatever they want on your property. Ever. Which is the point and you are saying it’s ok for you to remove said person but not a business or police it’s the exact same thing.
 
#14,220
#14,220
Rickyvol77 said:
So what? You think some movie theater invited anti mask people to protest and disrupt their business? Private property is private property and you can ask anyone to leave at any time for any reason. No one has a right to do whatever they want on your property. Ever. Which is the point and you are saying it’s ok for you to remove said person but not a business or police it’s the exact same thing.
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I didn't say it was not OK for a business to do anything. I simply asked is that a police matter.
 
#14,221
#14,221
Rickyvol77 said:
So what? You think some movie theater invited anti mask people to protest and disrupt their business? Private property is private property and you can ask anyone to leave at any time for any reason. No one has a right to do whatever they want on your property. Ever. Which is the point and you are saying it’s ok for you to remove said person but not a business or police it’s the exact same thing.
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Does that apply to the police when they come onto your property without being invited?
 
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#14,224
#14,224
Rickyvol77 said:
It can be because the person is refusing to leave said property and the business or property owner has no other recourse.
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This never was an option until the city/state of New York came up with these vaccine passports. If cops and businesses never had to worry about these things 2 years ago, why do it now?

Look, you can come on here and throw out every hypothetical situation you want, I've already made my case that there is a time for cops to be involved and a time when they need to let people work things out on their own.
 
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