To Protect and to Serve II

#13,126
#13,126
Rasputin_Vol said:
From a pragmatic and common sense stand point, law enforcement should not be called to enforce some arbitrary rule you have on your property. That should be your responsibility to enforce.

Some guy not taking his shoes off in your house or not wearing a mask should not be a law enforcement matter. It is hard enough to get these guys to correctly enforce the silly azz laws that legislators come up with. Now they have to enforce you arbitrary silly azz house rules, also? Its nonsense like this that allows for law enforcement to encroach even more into areas where they do not belong, and it also removes responsibility from the property owner from the consequences of the decision they made. A property owner creates an arbitrary rule that they have no obligation of enforcing... they sub it out to the govt to enforce.
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They aren’t there to enforce the arbitrary rules, ras. They’re there to enforce property rights. If you aren’t following the rules the property owner sets forth, you’re trespassing and must leave or be removed.
 
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#13,127
#13,127
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
They aren’t there to enforce the arbitrary rules, ras. They’re there to enforce property rights. If you aren’t following the rules the property owner sets forth, you’re trespassing and must leave or be removed.
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I understand how things are... my argument is that from an ideal and pragmatic approach, that is your responsibility to enforce your arbitrary rules.

Now if someone shows up uninvited or you have a person endangering life, limb or property, then that justifies using law enforcement resources.
 
#13,128
#13,128
Rasputin_Vol said:
From a pragmatic and common sense stand point, law enforcement should not be called to enforce some arbitrary rule you have on your property. That should be your responsibility to enforce.

Some guy not taking his shoes off in your house or not wearing a mask should not be a law enforcement matter. It is hard enough to get these guys to correctly enforce the silly azz laws that legislators come up with. Now they have to enforce you arbitrary silly azz house rules, also? Its nonsense like this that allows for law enforcement to encroach even more into areas where they do not belong, and it also removes responsibility from the property owner from the consequences of the decision they made. A property owner creates an arbitrary rule that they have no obligation of enforcing... they sub it out to the govt to enforce.
Click to expand...

It isn't a matter of them enforcing an arbitrary rule. It's a matter of private property rights. If someone is on your property that you don't want there for whatever reason and they refuse to leave upon you asking them to (aka trespassing), the options are either to call law enforcement or start an altercation. Are you saying that people should start potentially violent altercations instead of calling law enforcement?
 
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#13,129
#13,129
Rasputin_Vol said:
I understand how things are... my argument is that from an ideal and pragmatic approach, that is your responsibility to enforce your arbitrary rules.

Now if someone shows up uninvited or you have a person endangering life, limb or property, then that justifies using law enforcement resources.
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The police's number 1 job should be to protect property rights whether it be from individuals or other .gov entities.
 
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#13,130
#13,130
hog88 said:
So I should be allowed to kill the guy for not following the rules in my house or place of business and just dump his body on the street?
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You would have to be held under the same scrutiny as a law enforcement (should) be held under. Now in today's world, cops can pop a cap in you for running away, so the property owner may get off.

 
#13,131
#13,131
hog88 said:
Are you saying that people should start potentially violent altercations instead of calling law enforcement?
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I'm saying that you, as the property owner have rights... and with those rights, you have responsibilities.

I'm empowering the property owner by putting the responsibility of enforcing their rules back on them.
 
#13,137
#13,137
And just for good measure, don't expect the veterans to bail you out, either.

Too many in this country have an unhealthy relationship with people in uniform. These people will choose sides when the SHTF and you are not on their side. They will side with the state. History shows that.

 
#13,138
#13,138
Rasputin_Vol said:
And just for good measure, don't expect the veterans to bail you out, either.

Too many in this country have an unhealthy relationship with people in uniform. These people will choose sides when the SHTF and you are not on their side. They will side with the state. History shows that.

Click to expand...


That's a female REMF, doubt she could even hit what she's shooting at.
 
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#13,144
#13,144
InVOLuntary said:
@Rasputin_Vol

So someone shows up to your house and acts like an ass, hits on your wife, daughter. You ask them to leave. They become belligerent and refuse to leave. What do you do?
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Hopefully, I'm able to get a few shots off and save the day and call the police after the situation is over.

I'm not certain where you are going with this...
 
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#13,146
#13,146
InVOLuntary said:
It was an honest question. No motive. I was just trying to understand your position.
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Someone coming in and engaging in violence (criminal activity) is far different than someone coming in and essentially being rude, disrespectful and lacking common courtesy.

I pretty much think I made a clear distinction here:

Rasputin_Vol said:
If I make a rule that you can't enter my home with shoes on and someone refuses, then I need to be the one that handles that issue. Not the police. That is an arbitrary house rule that I have established that I need to enforce.

On the other hand, if there is an act of violence, damage to property being committed or someone comes uninvited/intrudes, then that is when the police are warranted and necessary.

Property rights come with responsibilities for the property owner, as well.
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#13,147
#13,147
Rasputin_Vol said:
Someone coming in and engaging in violence (criminal activity) is far different than someone coming in and essentially being rude, disrespectful and lacking common courtesy.

I pretty much think I made a clear distinction here:
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In my post I didn't imply they were engaging in criminal activity. I didn't mean actually placing hands on your wife.or daughter when I said hitting on them. I meant being rude, obnoxious, lewd. I'm not sure that would be considered illegal. What's illegal is when you ask them to leave and they don't leave. At that point you can take law into your own hands or you can call the law and have them removed. I have an idea they would prosecute you for murder if you shot an unarmed man when he's not physically attacking you.

Again, I'm not trying to trap you, I'm trying to determine when you think lethal force is justified and when you think its appropriate to call the police.
 
#13,148
#13,148
InVOLuntary said:
In my post I didn't imply they were engaging in criminal activity. I didn't mean actually placing hands on your wife.or daughter when I said hitting on them. I meant being rude, obnoxious, lewd. I'm not sure that would be considered illegal. What's illegal is when you ask them to leave and they don't leave. At that point you can take law into your own hands or you can call the law and have them removed. I have an idea they would prosecute you for murder if you shot an unarmed man when he's not physically attacking you.

Again, I'm not trying to trap you, I'm trying to determine when you think lethal force is justified and when you think its appropriate to call the police.
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Oh, when you said "hits on your wife" I was thinking you said "hit my wife". But either way, the outcome should be the same. That isn't something for the police to resolve.
 
#13,150
#13,150
InVOLuntary said:
So you're ok with killing a person trespassing? Not willing to leave when asked?
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In this hypothetical, the first thing would be to ask them to leave. And then if they refuse then it can get physical where I either try to push out or do whatever is necessary to get them out. I would say that even in a situation that you are talking about, I'm not sure if I would have an opportunity to call the police or if I did call, if they would show up before one of us is dead/seriously injured.
 
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