Thoughts on Butch...

[sjt18]

Stay calm guys...bUTch said it.

So Kongbo has 3 years of elibility left.... Jones didn't leave himself much wiggle room on that one.

 

[MikeVol44]

the standard? over the last 8 years, our record is 47-51, 5 losing seasons. :blink:

While your ability to evaluate STATS is commendable, you do demonstrate a complete lack of understanding concerning what motivates both football coaches and football players---and that is winning SEC championships!

The STANDARD of excellence acceptable for the University of Tennessee in EVERY sport will always be winning SEC championships.

Why is that REALITY lost on you, Jake?

Do you ever listen to coaches????
Every single one always states that winning the SEC championship is the goal! You don't get the best recruits to come to your program by promising them that we will win at least 3 out of every 4 games we play and get to go to a good Bowl game...

So--without apology--I would rather have a coach who understands that the STANDARD is winning SEC championships....CBJ has always stated that to be HIS goal....AND that is what he is selling to every recruit....and winning the SEC will put us in the final four for the NC.....

There's a reason Alabama has had the No. 1 recruiting class for the past several years--and it's because the recruits KNOW that playing at Alabama under Saban means an opportunity to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS--not just 75% of your games....

This is nothing new--it's football 101....and I just figured that every football fan understood this fact. :salute:

 

[sanddune50]

If that's the accepted standard, I'm out.

It's not the accepted standard. But if there is any hint of you being a fragile fan and leaving due to things not going the way you want them to, go ahead and leave. And take the 25 posters that liked your post with you. I assure you Neyland will still be packed on Saturdays.

 

[jakez4ut]

1. 8-4 is not acceptable as a standard for the Tennessee Volunteers. We're only content with it in 2015 because we're rising out of the Dark Ages. It will not remain a source of contentment.

2. 7-5 is a hard floor for the Vols -- we should not, 19 times out of 20, lose to Vandy, Kentucky, Mizzou, or USCe. That's four wins, just about every year. Add three of our four OOC games to that, and you get 7 wins; there's the floor. Among the remaining 5 games, which could all be challenging each year, we should expect to split them or better. That means 9.5 wins per year should be the centerline expectation. We should expect variance from that center line, of course. We should expect championship years, and down years. Down years should look like the 8-4 OP mentioned. Those are our down years, not our norm.

3. Parity is all well and good, but these are the realities of the Tennessee Volunteers in the SEC East in the early 21st Century. From this point on, every year is a potential championship year.

Go Vols!

that's the best way i've seen it explained, and i think this is reasonable.

every SEC fan base with a pulse expects their team to win it every year, if you don't you suck and everyone should be fired. but that's just not realistic now is it? we can't all win it every year.

so, what then in this new era of 14 team SEC, 12 game regular season is both Acceptable and realistic? that's where we all have to get to.

right now, i see Bama as a clear cut above everyone else in the SEC. for me, they're the favorite to win it, until.......well, i don't knwo when, maybe if they only get top 10 classes instead of #1 classes every year?

after that, there's a hodge podge of teams that all recruit at a high level, have had modacoms of success, trying to get to that next level. thats our main competition as i see it...that's FL, GA, Auburn, Ole Miss, Mizzou, MSU, ARK etc...i don't think there's that much separating any of these teams right now.

this is where the competition is going to be in the near future, and i can see any of these teams in a given year, have that 10/11 win season. but more times than not they're all going to have those 8-9 win seasons.

and folks, unfortunately, we're in that group.

so to me, it's unreasonable to put the floor at 9 or 10, and just say "i expect better" and it happen, no matter who the coach is, not named Nick Saban.

there's better coaches than CBJ in the league right now, and none of them are leading their programs to be on the same level as Bama. they are doing the same thing many are talking about here....when they have opportunities, can they take advantage? Auburn and LSU have...GA, USCe, MSU, Ole Miss, Mizzou, aTm have not.

so even you look at it, relatively, we're not that far off from being in that conversation probably year in and year out.

you just have to figure out what is both acceptable and realistic, then you can be happy as a fan.

 

[jakez4ut]

the standard? over the last 8 years, our record is 47-51, 5 losing seasons. :blink:

While your ability to evaluate STATS is commendable, you do demonstrate a complete lack of understanding concerning what motivates both football coaches and football players---and that is winning SEC championships!

The STANDARD of excellence acceptable for the University of Tennessee in EVERY sport will always be winning SEC championships.

Why is that REALITY lost on you, Jake?

Do you ever listen to coaches????
Every single one always states that winning the SEC championship is the goal! You don't get the best recruits to come to your program by promising them that we will win at least 3 out of every 4 games we play and get to go to a good Bowl game...

So--without apology--I would rather have a coach who understands that the STANDARD is winning SEC championships....CBJ has always stated that to be HIS goal....AND that is what he is selling to every recruit....and winning the SEC will put us in the final four for the NC.....

There's a reason Alabama has had the No. 1 recruiting class for the past several years--and it's because the recruits KNOW that playing at Alabama under Saban means an opportunity to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS--not just 75% of your games....

This is nothing new--it's football 101....and I just figured that every football fan understood this fact. :salute:

i'm not sure what you're talking about here. i didn't comment on anything any of our coaches or players expect, or should expect. i would agree with you, they do, and should expect to compete and win the SEC. that is the goal every year. it just may not be a realistic expectation for every year.

you said the standard should be 10 games or winning SEC championships or whatever, i simply pointed out that relatively speaking, over the last 8 years, that standard has shifted downward a tad. and for you, or anyone else as a fan, to simply say "i expect 10 wins and/or SEC titles or else", given our current state of affairs, is a bit naive. we're not Alabama. hell, we're not Ole Miss right now. we're on the way though. you don't start a journey at the destination.

it's not 1999 anymore. welcome to the land of "8 wins is pretty good". we'll see what happens to that though as we go forward.

but just don't act like the last 8 years hasn't happened. and that all the sudden we should just be championship material because the fans "expect it or else".

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Yeah, Jake. And if you take that 9.5 win "center line" and run 2.5 games out in either direction from it, this is kind of the template for the Vols from here on out:

7-5 -- horrible year, worst one could reasonably expect. Should happen only very rarely (one year in 15).

8-4 -- bad year, but not quite a train wreck. Will happen occasionally (one year in 5).

9-3 -- meh year, a common expectation but on the low side. (one year in 3).

10-2 -- good year, also a common expectation, on the high side. Possible SEC championship run (one year in 3).

11-1 -- great year, likely SEC and possible national championship run. (one year in 5).

12-0 -- astounding year, very rare, going for it all. (one year in 15).

Something like that :good!:



note -- All those odds are approximate, rounding off. They total up to 18 results in 15 years, because of those rounding errors.

 

[sjt18]

It's not the accepted standard. But if there is any hint of you being a fragile fan and leaving due to things not going the way you want them to, go ahead and leave. And take the 25 posters that liked your post with you. I assure you Neyland will still be packed on Saturdays.

So you have a problem with the guy who rejected 8 wins as the standard but not the guy who said he was "good" as long as he wins 8? Might want to reconsider your target.

 

[jakez4ut]

Yeah, Jake. And if you take that 9.5 win "center line" and run 2.5 games out in either direction from it, this is kind of the template for the Vols from here on out:

7-5 -- horrible year, worst one could reasonably expect. Should happen only very rarely (one year in 15).

8-4 -- bad year, but not quite a train wreck. Should happen occasionally (one year in 5).

9-3 -- meh year, a common expectation but on the low side. (one year in 3).

10-2 -- good year, also a common expectation, on the high side. Possible SEC championship run (one year in 3).

11-1 -- great year, likely SEC and possible national championship run. (one year in 5).

12-0 -- astounding year, very rare, going for it all. (one year in 15).

Something like that :good!:



note -- All those odds are approximate, rounding off. They total up to 18 results in 15 years, because of those rounding errors.

i just don't think you can draw lines around it, it's not like our program is the only variable. there's 14 teams that think/feel the same way....but in merit, yeah, i get what you're saying. i just think the timing of some of that stuff matters more.

so like for your 1 in 15 year scenario for 7-5 seasons...that's pretty stringent since it's not likely you'll be there for 15 years.

and what if you win back to back SEC titles, and then go a decade w/out one, it's still averages out to 1 every 5 years.

so, i think we're trying to hard to define what is or is not "good or bad".

too many moving targets, and too many ways to pump up or down play accomplishments, to fit your agenda or perspective. take the GA game this year....many who don't like Butch will be the first to tell you that that game is no big deal, GA sucks, and it's a shame we were losing that game for as long as we were. the supporters will tell you it was monumental for ending a streak, and recruiting etc....

there's no winning. just different levels of suck.

which level do you want to be on? the one that is 5-7 or the one that's 8-4? but either way, you still suck.eace2:

 

[sanddune50]

You think Bama, UF, LSU, UGA, and Auburn fans have this mentality? Where are your ca hones??

Yeah, and UGA may be begging for an 8 win season depending on who they hire. LSU about went down the same path.There is only a handful of proven coaches in the nation. The rest are unknowns, including the Justin Fuentes and Tom Hermans of the world that everyone is currently slobbering all over.

And how many wins did Auburn have this year? I bet they wish they had 8 instead of 6.

 

[btrotter]

He needs to get better in game! The FL and OK loses should never happen when you have a quality in game manager. I also feel he needs to make some defensive staff changes and at least one offensive staff change.

 

[sanddune50]

So you have a problem with the guy who rejected 8 wins as the standard but not the guy who said he was "good" as long as he wins 8? Might want to reconsider your target.

Why? Because you replied with the above sentence? I just don't really care for fragile fans that threaten to bail if things don't go the way they expect them to. To me, that's not really a fan. That's a gravy trainer that only cheers for a team when it's on top. To be honest, bandwagon fans are beneath fan bases of win less teams. They don't really have a home. So in effect guys like the one I'm responding to is choosing to be homeless if the program doesn't meet some imaginary criteria he set for them. It has nothing to do with the 8 wins, just the mentality. I would rather discuss sports with people that aren't homeless fans that sit in vacant lots and whine about teams they use to cheer for.

Besides, last I checked when did '8' wins become the norm? It's one year. And we still have one more game probably against a ranked opponent. So if we win win that game, what was the entire point of the supposed 'guru's' rant? Does that mean he recalibrates his threat to bail to 9 win seasons? Or does he bail on that too? Like I said, it may be refreshing to trade some of our supposed fans with poor attitudes for fans that will scream their heads off and not act as if they are sitting in a library like I witnessed the last couple of home games.

 

[KBVol]

I mostly agree with the OP.
Interesting arguments about Jones on game day.
Here is a stat for you - Tennessee has never trailed at half this season!!!
That means that Jones out game day prepared every single coach we faced (Stoops, Saban, Richt, etc.) Now, can he make the proper halftime adjustments. The verdict is still out on this one. However, how many adjustments would a coach make if there ahead at half and their game plan is working. Just saying that, lots of halftime adjustments by a coach means they got out coached in the first half. Time will tell, but we are definitely on the brink of greatness

We were 9-1-2 at halftime this year (we actually did trail Georgia 24-17 at half, and tied with both Arky and Bama). We'd have had an extra win had we only played the first half. Unfortunately, we were 6-6 in the second halves of games this year, 4 of which we lost (Okla, Fla, Arky and Bama). We need to be a much better second half team next year, a team that's more capable of putting together four quarters of competitive football for us to move forward.....and, IMHO, it all starts with Jones and his coaching style/philosophies/management on gamedays.

 

[Volsick]

I just want to break .500 every year.

 

[MikeVol44]

i'm not sure what you're talking about here. i didn't comment on anything any of our coaches or players expect, or should expect. i would agree with you, they do, and should expect to compete and win the SEC. that is the goal every year.

I agree. the STANDARD is the GOAL!

you said the standard should be 10 games or winning SEC championships or whatever, i simply pointed out that relatively speaking, over the last 8 years, that standard has shifted downward a tad.

This is where we disagree--and you contradicted your statement above....THE STANDARD NEVER MOVES!!!
For any coach, player, fan, etc..etc..etc.....and yes, without apology, the standard or goal for UT is championships.
And, the PERFORMANCE has shifted downward over the last 8 years, but not the STANDARD.....

and for you, or anyone else as a fan, to simply say "i expect 10 wins and/or SEC titles or else", given our current state of affairs, is a bit naive.

I never said nor implied "....or else...."

You're the only one being naive.....and I'm not trying to insult you.......it's naive to think the STANDARD moves when it never does...that's the point of my post to you before this one....

And I'll stand by my statements...it's obvious that there is a communication issue going on here between us.....

I don't know why--have you ever played any organized sport where the goal was winning the championship?

Finally--concerning your statements about us not being Alabama......WHY? Why can't UT expect to win championships?

I would suggest that you go back and study Vince Lombardi and the Green Bay Packers. They were perennial losers....same guys.....until Lombardi came on board....and he took the "bad news bears" of the NFL and turned Green Bay into Titletown....and they named the SUPREME trophy in the sport of Football after him.

I think then you will begin to understand what I'm saying.

 

[volballs1]

Ironic choice of word.

You are absolutely right... if most of Volnation agrees with your low bar. If you do not expect a championship caliber program then the odds of getting one are very, very low. If on the other hand the standard is to compete for and win championships... something better than the 90's is out there. UF has done it. LSU has done it. OU has done it. Oregon has done it. tOSU looks to be establishing it. Even programs like Stanford, TCU, and Baylor have had themselves in the national conversation for several years running. FSU has. Clemson is there.

So yes, it can happen and, no, you don't have to have classes that the recruiting sites like.

You have to find good talent. You have to develop it. Then you need a coach who can win on game day. IMO, Jones has proven to be the first two... but not yet the last.

You don't have to buy anything. In a year with the door standing wide open for UT, he stole our Christmas candy. McElwain is known for O, not D. He's been around and has had success in numerous jobs.

Was there a thought here? I missed it.

That gets you to being in position to beat all of the best teams on your schedule. It takes coaching to push it over the top. So far, Jones' game day coaching hasn't been championship caliber... being kind.


Two things, the PARITY in the SEC makes it difficult to expect a championship every year. (Once you look up parody I think you'll find your mistake funny) It does not make it "futile" to expect UT to be in the SEC championship conversation every year.

I don't think the record has to be that good so long as long streaks of futility against some program do not stand in the way of competing for championships... like Fulmer's futility against UF for instance. Jones isn't off to a great start in that regard. A better game day coach beats UF in at least two of Jones first 3 years and probably both.

This is a big boy coaching league and Jones just hasn't shown himself to be a "man" yet on game day.

Aaaaand boom goes the dynamite. You sir are a sight for sore eyes. My nega.

 

[bigsteve13]

If that's the accepted standard, I'm out.

Peace.

Don't forget that it was because of your mind set that Dooley happened

 

[theFallGuy]

2) I do not buy the McElwain comparison yet. Admittedly, he has had a remarkable first year, but I'm not really sure just how much better his offense is than Muschamp's. Reminds me of Muschamp's 11 win season, and we all saw how the next few years panned out. It wouldn't shock me to see similar seasons with Mac.

I agree with this statement. I think everyone should just back up on McElwain before they start crowning him the next great coach.

 

[jakez4ut]

i'm not sure what you're talking about here. i didn't comment on anything any of our coaches or players expect, or should expect. i would agree with you, they do, and should expect to compete and win the SEC. that is the goal every year.

I agree. the STANDARD is the GOAL!

you said the standard should be 10 games or winning SEC championships or whatever, i simply pointed out that relatively speaking, over the last 8 years, that standard has shifted downward a tad.

This is where we disagree--and you contradicted your statement above....THE STANDARD NEVER MOVES!!!
For any coach, player, fan, etc..etc..etc.....and yes, without apology, the standard or goal for UT is championships.
And, the PERFORMANCE has shifted downward over the last 8 years, but not the STANDARD.....

and for you, or anyone else as a fan, to simply say "i expect 10 wins and/or SEC titles or else", given our current state of affairs, is a bit naive.

I never said nor implied "....or else...."

You're the only one being naive.....and I'm not trying to insult you.......it's naive to think the STANDARD moves when it never does...that's the point of my post to you before this one....

And I'll stand by my statements...it's obvious that there is a communication issue going on here between us.....

I don't know why--have you ever played any organized sport where the goal was winning the championship?

Finally--concerning your statements about us not being Alabama......WHY? Why can't UT expect to win championships?

I would suggest that you go back and study Vince Lombardi and the Green Bay Packers. They were perennial losers....same guys.....until Lombardi came on board....and he took the "bad news bears" of the NFL and turned Green Bay into Titletown....and they named the SUPREME trophy in the sport of Football after him.

I think then you will begin to understand what I'm saying.

this is pointless. it doesn't matter. you're setting your expectations based on Vince Lombardi, and Alabama's dynasty run.

yeah, that's realistic. good luck with that.

 

[NashVol11]

If UT averages 9 wins a year for the next 7 years, wins the SEC east twice but doesn't win the SEC over all , would there be more fans want to retain Butch or not? Would that be good enough?

Meaning, the 2023 season is about to start and we haven't won the SEC since 1998?

At that point, we're basically Ole Miss. I really hope this fanbase isn't okay with that.

 

[NashVol11]

I like your post.

I have thought back to when J Majors was the coach and I remember his first years. he had a hard time competing when he first got here but it seemed as though his teams really fought hard to be in each game. and, that's what I am seeing in Butch's teams right now.

We have been to the top in the sec. and, now we have been down for so long that I think fans really don't understand what it takes to really get back to the top. I also think that fans have put unreasonable expectations on Butch. I want to win right now and we should with the talent we are getting in recruiting but I believe in what Butch said earlier. It will take 5 to 7 years to really be back where we need to be. when we have a team full of rs seniors and rs juniors leading this team. we will be where we can compete with any team.

So, if we don't win the sec next year but we win the east. I'll be happy with the year. even if we don't win the east but we make progress I'll be happy. Patience is what we need......

jmo.. GO VOLS

Look at the SEC champs from this century. Bama, LSU, Florida, Auburn, Georgia. How many of those coaches took "5-7 years" to win their first SEC title? How many took more than 3?

 

[NashVol11]

1995-1998 is the best four year stretch you will ever see in the SEC.

Uh...Alabama won 3 national titles in four years, but ok

 

[Wylo]

Uh...Alabama won 3 national titles in four years, but ok

Facts, man! They will be mad at you.

 

[NashVol11]

Why? Because you replied with the above sentence? I just don't really care for fragile fans that threaten to bail if things don't go the way they expect them to. To me, that's not really a fan. That's a gravy trainer that only cheers for a team when it's on top. To be honest, bandwagon fans are beneath fan bases of win less teams. They don't really have a home. So in effect guys like the one I'm responding to is choosing to be homeless if the program doesn't meet some imaginary criteria he set for them. It has nothing to do with the 8 wins, just the mentality. I would rather discuss sports with people that aren't homeless fans that sit in vacant lots and whine about teams they use to cheer for.

Besides, last I checked when did '8' wins become the norm? It's one year. And we still have one more game probably against a ranked opponent. So if we win win that game, what was the entire point of the supposed 'guru's' rant? Does that mean he recalibrates his threat to bail to 9 win seasons? Or does he bail on that too? Like I said, it may be refreshing to trade some of our supposed fans with poor attitudes for fans that will scream their heads off and not act as if they are sitting in a library like I witnessed the last couple of home games.

This rant is addressed to something literally no one said. He didn't say he was out if we won less than 8 games at some point. He said he was out if we have a fanbase that is happy with a bunch of 8-4 seasons in which we never win anything significant.

 

[NashVol11]

Peace.

Don't forget that it was because of your mind set that Dooley happened

This is not even remotely true.

Of course, the guys that think 8 wins is a magical season were the ones that immediately hopped on the Dooley bandwagon because of 8 WINS AT LOUISIANA TECH!!! He's great!!

 

[NashVol11]

I just want to break .500 every year.

Lol