Thoughts on Butch...

[volfan102455]

1995 record was 11-1 and a loss to Florida
1996 record was 10-2 and a loss to Florida
1997 record was 11-2 and yep a loss to Florida
1998 record was 13-0 and a victory over Florida
1999 record was 9-3 and a loss to Florida

I guess if you forget that Florida won 4 of the 5 games and concentrate on the wins - it was a good run. 1 national championship and 2 SEC championships, 1 outright and 1 where some other team took care of Florida for us.

 

[sjt18]

I apologize for the word mix up. I will proof read more carefully next time.

I wasn't trying to bust you on it. I thought it was funny. I've done the same thing and find it funny then too.

 

[wilrob75]

He's getting a raise because the coaching carousel is spinning at full tilt right now, and we want to eliminate his name from all talks. That's it. His on-field product is still very questionable.

 

[champyvol]

he is an average coach is a weak sec east. that equals a lifetime contract.

 

[volsohard09]

On a scale of 1-10. 10 is Neyland and 0 is Dooley.

Where would you rate Butch?

Would you say he is in the top 50 of the coaches in the 5 power conferences?

Go Vols!

6. potential to be an 8.

yes top 50. but there are only 65 head coaches in the power 5.... i don't really know if you can compare him yet to guys who have been with their respective schools for a while or who have much more head coaching experience.

with his overall record of 70-44 61% wins I wouldn't expect him to jump much higher than an "8"


neyland: 173-31 85%
fulmer: 152-52 75%
johnny majors: 185-137 57%

spurrier: 228-89 72% (with 10 of those years at south carolina.... just impressive)
saban: 188-60 76% (82% at bama)
meyer: 153-27 85% (unreal)
richt: 145-51 74%

 

[tvolsfan]

i've seen this posted several times by several posters.

and it's nothing new. but no one ever defines this...

you make a statement like "at least 8 wins" and inevitably, there's the backlash of that being to low of a bar.

but no one ever sets the floor? only the ceiling.

it's a finite amount of games. and you literally can't win them all, every year.

so with that comes some variables. each season is it's own, and the "number" doesnt' tell the whole story does it? otherwise why would coaches like Fulmer, Richt, Mils, Mack Jones, etc....ever get fired, they all clearly win more than they lose......

(reg season records)
8-4
9-3
9-3
10-2
11-1
9-3
9-3
7-5
10-2
8-4

let's say that's our decade. is that acceptable? there's only 3 double digit seasons, the average is 9 on the money.

the trick though is can you survive the 7-5 season after 2 9 win seasons?

if you could predict the future and this was the next decade, is that good enough? you don't know who you lost to and you don't know post season results, just regular season...

is that good enough?

How many conference titles in that stretch?

 

[tvolsfan]

You really want to go back to when we were struggling to win 5-6 games a year? Didn't think so. This is the reason I don't see butch sticking around. People calling for his head winning 8 games is ridiculous.

No. I just don't want to pretend that we should be happy being a consistent 8 win team.

 

[Catbone]

With news of a pending raise/extension mentioned in another thread, I wanted to offer a few thoughts on our current coach and his progress.

1) The 90s are never coming back. At least not in the Vol football sense. Our historic run from 1995 thru 1999 will not be matched by anyone again. There is simply too much parity now. People will point to Saban, but he is the outlier not the norm. Short of Butch (or anyone) locking in top (#1 or #2) recruiting classes every year - without skipping a year - it just won't happen.

2) I do not buy the McElwain comparison yet. Admittedly, he has had a remarkable first year, but I'm not really sure just how much better his offense is than Muschamp's. Reminds me of Muschamp's 11 win season, and we all saw how the next few years panned out. It wouldn't shock me to see similar seasons with Mac.

3) That leads me to my third thought...it is absolutely fair to criticize Butch and staff for the OU and Fla losses. I think they were caught a bit off guard by how much they dominated OU, and subsequently panicked. The Florida game (really the last 2 Fla games) was the low point of his tenure. We had no business losing either one, but especially this season. Unfortunately we have a long history of losing to Florida when we shouldn't. Just one of the universe's mysteries.

4) That said, anyone with eyeballs can see we are a much better team than the one Butch inherited. We have NFL talent at multiple positions. We are among the best special teams and least penalized teams in the country - both hallmarks of well-coached teams. Those are also signs of teams that have "bought in" to the staff's vision.

If Butch can continue his recruiting level, and get someone to help Dobbs progress as a passer, we're looking at a special 2016. Beyond that, I think expectations must be tempered to allow for the occasional 8 win slip due to parity. I think a 45-5 run like Fulmer had is a noble (but futile) aspiration, but hopefully we can include a couple of conference titles and maybe a playoff berth or two in the next 15 years.

Excellent post. There are ENTIRELY too many people on here who don't believe point number 1. If you're not Bama, you're not going to have 10+ wins every year.

 

[sjt18]

I wasn't advocating low expectations. I simply said temper them. It's not as if every one of the teams you mentioned haven't had their 8-win season at some point during their respective runs.

Sorry. It sounded like it... and way too many here do it.

So you think Nick Saban would have the exact same success if his classes were in the 10-20 range?

Nope. But I find what Patterson and Briles are doing pretty impressive. Dantonio looks pretty solid too. Rhule (sp?) at Temple has been pretty impressive. Oregon had a long run without signing top classes and beat a team that seemed to always be top 5 (USC).

I'm going to give you an alternate opinion on Saban and rankings. Some of their high rankings are because the recruiting sites look at the players and rate them independently. But some of it is that they know Saban knows talent. So if he's after a guy who they would rank equal with another guy that he isn't interested in... guess who's getting the extra "star"...

How's his O doing?

Good enough to win the East... unlike Jones' O & D.

That said, he inherited a very good 1st team D and depth in spots. He inherited a disaster on O.

Yes the thought is that Jones is on the hook for those games and must improve to stay. Also, one of the best coaches in program history struggled to beat Florida, so I guess I just wonder if there's demons to be exercised.?

You did it again... How do you exercise your demons? Play fetch? j/k

But that can't be the standard. UT has to turn those tables and the door is still standing wide open for Jones to do it. If McElwain recruits like he does press conferences... that's good news for the Vols.

I think there's two areas here...his gameday prep has been terrific for the most part, but yes I agree there have been some head-scratching decisions.

I'm talking about in game and not just the decisions. I've given him credit for not doing it later but he went way too conservative with the leads vs UF and OU. I think the Arkansas loss is on the players. I think he did one of his best coaching jobs vs Bama. But he has to have the killer instinct in games like those first two... he didn't.

Again, I agree. I just also haven't decided that he cannot be the "man" in time. I think the progress (even amidst the OU/Fla debacles) would warrant more time and dare I say, some kudos to him.

IMHO, his first three grades are D-, D, and C. I hope that constitutes a trend but I am still very much on the fence until he proves he can beat all of UT's SEC rivals with some regularity.

 

[WildTurkey]

6. potential to be an 8.

yes top 50. but there are only 65 head coaches in the power 5.... i don't really know if you can compare him yet to guys who have been with their respective schools for a while or who have much more head coaching experience.

with his overall record of 70-44 61% wins I wouldn't expect him to jump much higher than an "8"


neyland: 173-31 85%
fulmer: 152-52 75%
johnny majors: 185-137 57%

spurrier: 228-89 72% (with 10 of those years at south carolina.... just impressive)
saban: 188-60 76% (82% at bama)
meyer: 153-27 85% (unreal)
richt: 145-51 74%

Of all the names on that list, the only one who faced something similar to Jones is Majors. It took him the better part of a decade to get UT back on the national map - and he was a national champion. No one judges him by win % with that natty at Pitt and 3 SEC titles here. It's plausible that Butch could do likewise.

 

[WildTurkey]

Nope. But I find what Patterson and Briles are doing pretty impressive. Dantonio looks pretty solid too. Rhule (sp?) at Temple has been pretty impressive. Oregon had a long run without signing top classes and beat a team that seemed to always be top 5 (USC).

I think all those guys are impressive too. It's hard to tell if they would have had the same level of success against tougher competition. Especially Briles. I think Dantonio is one of the best in football, but even he has had less than stellar seasons.

You did it again... How do you exercise your demons? Play fetch? j/k

D@mmit I swear I used to be a reasonably smart guy. I'll blame it on lack of sleep due to a baby.

IMHO, his first three grades are D-, D, and C. I hope that constitutes a trend but I am still very much on the fence until he proves he can beat all of UT's SEC rivals with some regularity.

No problem with being on the fence. I think it's fair. I guess I was just moved to be optimistic.

 

[sjt18]

Excellent post. There are ENTIRELY too many people on here who don't believe point number 1. If you're not Bama, you're not going to have 10+ wins every year.

Mostly because it does not have to be true. Programs with less history, resources, and support than UT have become perennial powers.

The right guy can not only equal Fulmer in the 90's when the SEC was mostly a two pony show... but achieve higher. People like Briles are proving it can be done.


Also, the SEC won't stay as dominant as it has been. Saban won't stay forever. Other conferences will figure things out. The ebb and flow will swing back the other way soon enough.

 

[vol66]

On Vol Nation the only requirement tied to an extension is wins. Grades don't matter, progress doesn't matter, behavior doesn't matter, good work in the community doesn't matter, positive public perception doesn't matter, donations don't matter, attendance doesn't matter, recruiting doesn't matter, former players positivity regarding Jones and the state of the program don't matter, industry standards don't apply.

The school on the other hand, I'm guessing, sees the whole picture.

The way I see it winning an SEC Championship means beating Alabama and it means it for everyone, Richt, Miles, Mullen, Freeze, etc. and we're in the same boat because we play Bama every year.

That as much as anything is why all these fanbases are frustrated with even very successful coaches. I mean UGA just fired a coach with a 9-3 record, wasn't like it was 5-7 or 6-6.

 

[Iam4utalways]

6. potential to be an 8.

yes top 50. but there are only 65 head coaches in the power 5.... i don't really know if you can compare him yet to guys who have been with their respective schools for a while or who have much more head coaching experience.

with his overall record of 70-44 61% wins I wouldn't expect him to jump much higher than an "8"


neyland: 173-31 85%
fulmer: 152-52 75%
johnny majors: 185-137 57%

spurrier: 228-89 72% (with 10 of those years at south carolina.... just impressive)
saban: 188-60 76% (82% at bama)
meyer: 153-27 85% (unreal)
richt: 145-51 74%

Well no one can say Butch hasn't had a fair shake. Plenty have voiced their displeasure with him as a game day coach, but he has been improving the program, he is behind on the win vs loss aspect, but I'm counting on these next 3 years to straighten that out, with a fringe of the curve type run.

Go Vols!

 

[lilesrt]

As long as he wins 8 games a year, I'm good with the guy. Obviously you want years here and there where you win 10-12 games, but as long as he never goes back below 8, I'm good for now.

This is a reasonable expectation. Continuity is crucial. Let Butch Jones keep stacking Top 5 recruitimg classes and Tennessee football will remain a successful program. Butch will continue to grow as a coach along the way.

 

[Iam4utalways]

1995 record was 11-1 and a loss to Florida
1996 record was 10-2 and a loss to Florida
1997 record was 11-2 and yep a loss to Florida
1998 record was 13-0 and a victory over Florida
1999 record was 9-3 and a loss to Florida

I guess if you forget that Florida won 4 of the 5 games and concentrate on the wins - it was a good run. 1 national championship and 2 SEC championships, 1 outright and 1 where some other team took care of Florida for us.

I was thinking that to end all streaks and then on not lose more than every other year to Florida or Bama, Georgia loss no more than 1 out of 4 and never back to back, the rest I expect to beat every year. With the above mentioned schedule to line up to an undefeated NC 1 out of every 3 years, back to back 1 out of every 5 years.

With a schedule change to 9 SEC games a year(a 4 year player visits all stadiums in the SEC)and our three OOC games against an opponent from one of the 5 power conferences(no gimme games).

Go Vols!

 

[Iam4utalways]

I'll play. I would give Butch an 8 with potential for a 9 in the future. Butch inherited a broken program that was last in the SEC East. No real established coaches and some who weren't - like Muschamp and Strong - wanted the job. The roster was a disaster and Butch was changing offenses. Tennessee is 10th in SEC as far as in-state recruiting bases. Vols are poised to be hellon wheels in 2016. That is a 4 year rebuild of a dumpster fire to back in national competition. Instead of wallowing around in timidity and cowardice over a few early season losses to top 10 teams - look at the current roster and improvement of the young squad in 2015. I am judging Butch as coach of Tennessee - and the progress he has made. If he can sustain Tennessee in the 9 win range with a mix of SEC east champs, etc. that is remarkable. I would rate him in the top 20 national coaches right now. Just remember for all the coach envy fantasy posters NO ESTABLISHED COACH WANTED THE JOB. NOT ONE EXCEPT BUTCH JONES. Hired Kiffey then Dooley to replace a hall of fame coach and finally Butch to clean up the 3 mile island meltdown, which he has proceeded to do. He has done a phenomenal job and the best is straight ahead.

I think you have over rated him and at the same time shorted him on potential.

Go Vols!

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

With news of a pending raise/extension mentioned in another thread, I wanted to offer a few thoughts on our current coach and his progress.

1) The 90s are never coming back. At least not in the Vol football sense. Our historic run from 1995 thru 1999 will not be matched by anyone again. There is simply too much parity now. People will point to Saban, but he is the outlier not the norm. Short of Butch (or anyone) locking in top (#1 or #2) recruiting classes every year - without skipping a year - it just won't happen.

2) I do not buy the McElwain comparison yet. Admittedly, he has had a remarkable first year, but I'm not really sure just how much better his offense is than Muschamp's. Reminds me of Muschamp's 11 win season, and we all saw how the next few years panned out. It wouldn't shock me to see similar seasons with Mac.

3) That leads me to my third thought...it is absolutely fair to criticize Butch and staff for the OU and Fla losses. I think they were caught a bit off guard by how much they dominated OU, and subsequently panicked. The Florida game (really the last 2 Fla games) was the low point of his tenure. We had no business losing either one, but especially this season. Unfortunately we have a long history of losing to Florida when we shouldn't. Just one of the universe's mysteries.

4) That said, anyone with eyeballs can see we are a much better team than the one Butch inherited. We have NFL talent at multiple positions. We are among the best special teams and least penalized teams in the country - both hallmarks of well-coached teams. Those are also signs of teams that have "bought in" to the staff's vision.

If Butch can continue his recruiting level, and get someone to help Dobbs progress as a passer, we're looking at a special 2016. Beyond that, I think expectations must be tempered to allow for the occasional 8 win slip due to parity. I think a 45-5 run like Fulmer had is a noble (but futile) aspiration, but hopefully we can include a couple of conference titles and maybe a playoff berth or two in the next 15 years.

The SEC East is as big a mess as it has been in the last decade or more.

Jones has gotten exactly what he has wanted and asked for from this program and its fans.

This team should be set up for a dominant 3-4 year run while all the other programs are in rebuild mode themselves.

I agree 45-5 may be a bit much but the expectation should be winning the East. If that doesn't happen, then it's on Jones and no one but Jones next season and moving forward.

No more whining about Dooley/Kiffin/Fulmer/Majors recruiting or youth.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

1995 record was 11-1 and a loss to Florida
1996 record was 10-2 and a loss to Florida
1997 record was 11-2 and yep a loss to Florida
1998 record was 13-0 and a victory over Florida
1999 record was 9-3 and a loss to Florida

I guess if you forget that Florida won 4 of the 5 games and concentrate on the wins - it was a good run. 1 national championship and 2 SEC championships, 1 outright and 1 where some other team took care of Florida for us.

By that logic I guess Alabama doesn't get full credit for winning the SEC the last couple of years because they needed someone to take care of Ole Miss for them.

 

[VolFreakJosh]

As long as he wins 8 games a year, I'm good with the guy. Obviously you want years here and there where you win 10-12 games, but as long as he never goes back below 8, I'm good for now.

Sorry but I'd like to see Tennessee win some championships before I die instead of settling for 8 wins every year.

 

[WildTurkey]

The SEC East is as big a mess as it has been in the last decade or more.

Jones has gotten exactly what he has wanted and asked for from this program and its fans.

This team should be set up for a dominant 3-4 year run while all the other programs are in rebuild mode themselves.

I agree 45-5 may be a bit much but the expectation should be winning the East. If that doesn't happen, then it's on Jones and no one but Jones next season and moving forward.

No more whining about Dooley/Kiffin/Fulmer/Majors recruiting or youth.

I think your expectations are very reasonable.

 

[volfan102455]

By that logic I guess Alabama doesn't get full credit for winning the SEC the last couple of years because they needed someone to take care of Ole Miss for them.

I was just sharing the facts - nothing more.

 

[LordVOLdemort]

If that's the accepted standard, I'm out.

bye felicia

 

[amavol2]

If UT averages 9 wins a year for the next 7 years, wins the SEC east twice but doesn't win the SEC over all , would there be more fans want to retain Butch or not? Would that be good enough?

 

[KBVol]

This and playing in the SECCG every 2-3 years. Butch has made Tennessee football relevant again. Now it's on him to make the Vols a perennial SEC and Natty contender.

We're not quite relevant yet. 8-4, no championship at any level, no top 25 ranking, 1-4 in our 5 most difficult games.

Getting there, just not there yet.