Third Quarter Woes

#51
#51
Hi Retro,

I find it interesting that you take great exception to posts that make inferences about what CKC is thinking (since only she can know and we should stick to the observable data) but you seem to have fewer reservations about making attributions in regard to the players' psychology. Just an observation....
When fighting cognitive biases, vigilance is a constant necessity. They are deeply ingrained because they have, on an evolutionary scale, had survival benefits. In this case, it's the attribution bias, which is when we tend to attribute the behavior or actions of others to internal characteristics, such as personality traits or abilities, while underestimating the influence of external factors or situational context. For ourselves, we do the opposite. I won't go into how this might have benefitted individuals in earlier, more primitive and violent times, but in situations such as this, especially when combined with the negativity bias -- well, taking a generous approach to thinking about others is often an effort.

And, no, I'm not perfect, and I sometimes don't even try that hard. I don't like Geno, and I'm not putting in a lot of time and effort to counter my beliefs. However, if I ever met him in person, or for some weird reason had cause to interact with him, I hope I'd set that pre-conceived emotion aside and look more broadly and more generously at the man. And I wouldn't be surprised that he's not the caricature I have of him in my mind. But, even with that, I try not to use that caricature to explain his actions.

As for the specific contradiction you have pointed out, I think there is a distinction that makes a difference, but others may disagree. When thinking about groups of people and the factors that influence their thoughts, feelings, and actions, I think it is fair to look at broad differences in reward systems and how those might tend to influence the group. For example, young associates in large, high prestige law firms work insane hours for years (at good pay, admittedly, but money, beyond a certain point that's not that high, doesn't buy happiness). They sacrifice personal lives and often relationships, are frequently extremely unhappy, depressed, anxious, and compromised by alcohol or drugs. But they do it for the "gold ring" of partnership in one of those firms. Thinking about (and researching) how that set of rewards and punishments influences thoughts, feelings, and behaviors -- including choices -- is justifiable, so long as one then does not automatically assign those generalizations to any specific individuals. Some may fit the generalities exactly, but others will vary widely.

So, in this case, attributing CKC's actions to "bad character" without broad and substantial evidence, and often in the face of contrary evidence, strikes me as very much a symptom of the worst of the anonymous internet. Thinking about how revenue sharing, NIL, and future pro possibilities affect, in general, the thoughts, feelings, and actions of college athletes seems justifiable. I doubt there is much disagreement about why so many D1 football players skip bowl games that are not part of the championship hunt.

Edited to add: And, yup, I probably defend CKC more because I like her and her "system" and wanted (still do) it and her to be successful. I'm unlikely, however, to deploy the same effort to defend that prime example of East Coast evil that ensnares vulnerable players and entangles the mind of enfeebled fans into his egregious excess of existential entropy. (How's that for balanced?)
 
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#52
#52
From CKC's postgame and midweek pressers, the usual halftime adjustment has been to "start doing what you do in practice that you didn't do in the first half."

And that's a totally legitimate adjustment.

If the team didn't execute the gameplan in the first half, why would any coach switch to something different from what the team practiced and prepared specifically for this opponent?
And if this is what she and her staff are seeing (and it's been said in different ways all through the season) -- that the players show they understand in practice, then revert to their old ways of playing in the game -- that's got to be frustrating to the coaches. Especially if they haven't see this before. Kim has talked a lot about players having to adjust to her system, but apparently she has never had a team fail to (fight the?) adjustment like this one. At least, that would be my read of those statements. And, if that's the case, those saying she should abandon her system because of this season's results are going to be disappointed, because she is likely going to decide that the system was so poorly executed that adjusting based on these results would likely be a mistake. That would be like a shooter who knew he jerked the trigger adjusting his sights based on that one bad shot.
 
#53
#53
IMO Kim probably has never had to deal with this kind of thing with players before, the moody lazy play head cases.
To be honest I haven't watched a lot of LV games this year, but here's how I would handle it. You bench every player that the fits that definition, and don't let them play. Then you run their *sses off in every single practice. Either they will step up to meet your expectations, quit, or transfer. No loss either way.
 
#54
#54
To be honest I haven't watched a lot of LV games this year, but here's how I would handle it. You bench every player that the fits that definition, and don't let them play. Then you run their *sses off in every single practice. Either they will step up to meet your expectations, quit, or transfer. No loss either way.
We might now have any players left to play. Suspect it would be less than five. Maybe all the freshmen would qualify don't see any upperclassmen that are giving it all they got.
 
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#55
#55
And if this is what she and her staff are seeing (and it's been said in different ways all through the season) -- that the players show they understand in practice, then revert to their old ways of playing in the game -- that's got to be frustrating to the coaches. Especially if they haven't see this before. Kim has talked a lot about players having to adjust to her system, but apparently she has never had a team fail to (fight the?) adjustment like this one. At least, that would be my read of those statements. And, if that's the case, those saying she should abandon her system because of this season's results are going to be disappointed, because she is likely going to decide that the system was so poorly executed that adjusting based on these results would likely be a mistake. That would be like a shooter who knew he jerked the trigger adjusting his sights based on that one bad shot.

Has CKC every considered that the players may not be able to do what they did in practice because of what the other team is doing?

Let's face the facts, CKC has not shown the ability to adjust during a game. It is an all or nothing - if it works, they win. If it doesn't - they lose and then she throws them under the bus with words like "do what you do in practice" - Practice is NOT the game.
 
#57
#57
From CKC's postgame and midweek pressers, the usual halftime adjustment has been to "start doing what you do in practice that you didn't do in the first half."

And that's a totally legitimate adjustment.

If the team didn't execute the gameplan in the first half, why would any coach switch to something different from what the team practiced and prepared specifically for this opponent?
Valid point but incomplete. Next job for the coach is to tell them where they’re falling short of the game plan and what they need to do differently to fulfill it. Present alternatives.

Could the problem with third quarters be that halftime is too much rest? They’re conditioned for the short bursts and short rest. Maybe muscles and reflexs get too cold. Not sure what you could do about that.

fatigue might be a factor in some of the problematic things we’re seeing. It was a problem at this point last year.Maybe lapses are bc they’re dog tired and zone out not bc they dgaf?
 
#58
#58
Valid point but incomplete. Next job for the coach is to tell them where they’re falling short of the game plan and what they need to do differently to fulfill it. Present alternatives.

Could the problem with third quarters be that halftime is too much rest? They’re conditioned for the short bursts and short rest. Maybe muscles and reflexs get too cold. Not sure what you could do about that.

fatigue might be a factor in some of the problematic things we’re seeing. It was a problem at this point last year.Maybe lapses are bc they’re dog tired and zone out not bc they dgaf?

Does she work them too hard in practice? I mean this time of the year, the best teams have practiced enough that they know what to do.

At some point I would think practices would be where you work on the game plan that is geared towards the team you are about to play.

I'm not a coach but I always thought that is what they would do - watch film of the other team and game plan based on that - not just tell your players to go do what we do.
 
#59
#59
Could the problem with third quarters be that halftime is too much rest? They’re conditioned for the short bursts and short rest. Maybe muscles and reflexs get too cold. Not sure what you could do about that.
That is an interesting prospect. It makes a lot of sense. Your body is trained for one specific activity-recovery pattern and the extended half time rest throws it off. And it takes some time to get going.

If the analytics shows that it is the first half of the 3rd quarter when things tend to go bad and then there is an improvement that would be a good confirmation.

Maybe CKC should cut the halftime talk short (cause it don't seem to be doing much anyone) and get the team out on the court sooner for an extended and more aggressive warm-up (Okay, suicides and high tempo pass and cut drills)
 
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#60
#60
As I understand the data, 3rd quarters weren't a problem last year. And I am guessing haven't been a consistent problem across her career. Any analysis that starts with "third quarters are a problem" for CKC's team has to account for the exceptional nature of this year.
 
#61
#61
Those of you who think the issue is ONLY the players are very misled. Coaching needs to improve as well.
You are right the ones that quit playing hard need to wear the pine . And yes I think she goes to deep on the bench until the game is decided. She's already back off trapping the full game. And as for a zone defense lots of teams only play man . But that could also be something she would like to try on a limited basis.
 
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#62
#62
As I understand the data, 3rd quarters weren't a problem last year. And I am guessing haven't been a consistent problem across her career. Any analysis that starts with "third quarters are a problem" for CKC's team has to account for the exceptional nature of this year.
Good point. But still definitely still worth figuring out why alot of things are different this year and not just dismiss it as wrong or unwilling personnel. I think they trained a little differently for one thing?
 
#63
#63
Valid point but incomplete. Next job for the coach is to tell them where they’re falling short of the game plan and what they need to do differently to fulfill it. Present alternatives.

Could the problem with third quarters be that halftime is too much rest? They’re conditioned for the short bursts and short rest. Maybe muscles and reflexs get too cold. Not sure what you could do about that.

fatigue might be a factor in some of the problematic things we’re seeing. It was a problem at this point last year.Maybe lapses are bc they’re dog tired and zone out not bc they dgaf?
I thought this was what happened with Zee and Barker in the Texas game. Zee sat for so long. She had to go get on one of the bikes. Both looked completely disjointed once they got back into the game in the fourth quarter.
 
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#64
#64
Good point. But still definitely still worth figuring out why alot of things are different this year and not just dismiss it as wrong or unwilling personnel. I think they trained a little differently for one thing?
Yeah. Kim said, IIRCC, she didn't put in as much of her system during the summer and didn't run them as hard. I've been told on this board that young athletes only have so many miles in their legs. Don't know. Don't know if that effect appears in Feb. because of work in the previous July, of if it just means that the rare few who make it will leave the WNBA (if it still exists) at 36 instead of 37. However, if I'm a coach and did that and my team never really seemed to either (a) learn the system or (b) be willing to run it with full commitment, I might consider going back to my old way of doing things.
 
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#65
#65
Certainly not intended. But, if you're asking players to change the way they've played, I suspect P4 players have put a lot more hours into a certain kind of play, and see themselves continuing that play in the future, so are likely more skeptical of changing. Also more interested, from a financial standpoint for the bigger stars, in their stats as a basis for future earnings. Not throwing shade. It's just a difference, and one that I suspect can affect Kim's ability to sell her system. Which is NOT to say I think Kim's approach is necessarily a hindrance for developing pro skills. But the substitution patterns, unless they're working, probably are.
I've really just been contrarian, giving you a hard time. I'd have to be in a coma the last couple of years not to see how much big money has changed everyone and everything. Also blind not to see that those different dynamics at this level are causing apparent communication problems between staff and team.

. I get defensive tho when taking the money is implied to be moral failing, especially compared to the Fair Haired Women of D2. I also don't like when taking money is tied to lack of effort beause it's not logical. If you're playing for the bag, the last thing you want on your resume is that you're a lazy quitter and a lousy leader. Doesn't exactly make you a hot commodity in the next portal. Those in it for the bag have even more motivation to be locked in and play well.
Yeah. Kim said, IIRCC, she didn't put in as much of her system during the summer and didn't run them as hard. I've been told on this board that young athletes only have so many miles in their legs. Don't know. Don't know if that effect appears in Feb. because of work in the previous July,
Kim is who said it was cumulative effect last year. That's why she trained differently last summer. I think tired legs late in a basketball season are pretty much universal. That's why theres the infamous NBA " load management".
 
#66
#66
Now this is just my opinion; I have no sources, but I don't buy the "tired legs" bit. 20-year-olds don't get "tired legs". At that age, you can play 2 hours of basketball on almost a daily basis. All these players come in from AAU ball with multiple games per day. Slacking off in July does nothing to help you in February; if anything, the opposite is true.
 
#67
#67
Now this is just my opinion; I have no sources, but I don't buy the "tired legs" bit. 20-year-olds don't get "tired legs". At that age, you can play 2 hours of basketball on almost a daily basis. All these players come in from AAU ball with multiple games per day. Slacking off in July does nothing to help you in February; if anything, the opposite is true.
Just telling you what Kim has said and told us to expect about her system She says that it requires conditioning over and above any regular basketball conditioning. She also said last year when the team hit a bad patch that it was due to tired legs caused by overtraining in the fall. Said they underestimated the physical rigors of an SEC season. Said she would adjust offseason training this year due to that experience last season. Sounds like her training team believes mileage on the legs in a season is finite, and has to be managed. Still looking for a sweet spot to train for this complicated and demanding system. Overuse is a very real thing.
 
#68
#68
Just telling you what Kim has said and told us to expect about her system She says that it requires conditioning over and above any regular basketball conditioning. She also said last year when the team hit a bad patch that it was due to tired legs caused by overtraining in the fall. Said they underestimated the physical rigors of an SEC season. Said she would adjust offseason training this year due to that experience last season. Sounds like beher training team believes mileage on the legs in a season is infinite, and has to be managed. Overuse is a very real thing.

I remember that, and at the time I didn't buy it, just chose to keep my big mouth shut. Now I'm even more sure I'm not buying it.
 
#69
#69
I remember that, and at the time I didn't buy it, just chose to keep my big mouth shut. Now I'm even more sure I'm not buying it.
Why would she lie? Was there something darker causing the collapse late last season? How many conspiracies can one team be involved with? No wonder they can't stay focused.
 
#70
#70
I've really just been contrarian, giving you a hard time
Not a problem. I guess my core professional identity, despite a varied career, is "lawyer." To lawyers, team building" and "adversarial confrontations" are often interchangeable!

. I get defensive tho when taking the money is implied to be moral failing, especially compared to the Fair Haired Women of D2. I also don't like when taking money is tied to lack of effort beause it's not logical. If you're playing for the bag, the last thing you want on your resume is that you're a lazy quitter and a lousy leader. Doesn't exactly make you a hot commodity in the next portal. Those in it for the bag have even more motivation to be locked in and play well.
I hope I have never suggested that grabbing life-changing money when you have an opportunity is a moral failing. It's not. But when the possibility of significant extrinsic rewards (money, fame) are introduced into an activity that has been pursued for intrinsic rewards (enjoyment, friendships, achievement), it changes motivation. And, "extrinsic rewards drive out intrinsic motivation" is a well-known research finding.

Once extrinsic rewards become the goal, then become unlikely, motivation drops. So, a player who gets the idea she is a candidate for significant money and lets that become her reason for playing will, when that dream becomes unlikely, often find she loses her motivation. It's a baffling experience and hard to understand or manage without good guidance, although there are some players who just seem to hang onto that joy in playing regardless. This is a part of what really makes "For Love of the Game" stand out to me.

Anyway, I think that the introduction of significant financial rewards as a possibility for D1 female athletes in recent years has created and will continue to drive a psychological dynamic among that group of players that won't exist at the D2 levels or lower, maybe not anywhere below the P4 conferences. And, even on P4 teams, it will affect only a few players. That's something VERY few women's basketball coaches have significant experience dealing with, and it's going to be a learning curve.
 
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#71
#71
Why would she lie? Was there something darker causing the collapse late last season? How many conspiracies can one team be involved with? No wonder they can't stay focused.

I don't think she lied. More of a misdiagnosis. My take here could be a misdiagnosis as well.

FWIW I think mental fatigue and accumulated nagging injuries are a much more real possibility than a blanket "tired legs" syndrome.
 
#74
#74
Okay, maybe a little commentary, what is CKC doing to those poor kids at halftime?
I hate to make the Pat Summitt comparison, but I was always so impressed with how Coach Summitt was able to motivate her teams at halftime. So many times, it looked like a completely different team in the second half. She had a magic about her and she was somehow able to put a spark in those players and fully ignite them. I would say it was more about pure motivation and less about strategies, though it was likely some combination of both. We obviously can't expect Coach Caldwell to be like Coach Summitt, but I too have noticed this year's team going consistently flat in the 3rd quarter -like they just don't have any drive or enthusiasm. Caldwell is a young coach and is still pretty inexperienced at this level. Hopefully she'll figure it out soon!
 
#75
#75
Well for starters Gabe used to be hell of loud from the bench last season motivating the girls. This year not so much. I tend to pick up little things like that in individuals when something is off even if they lie about it. Call it intuition 😁
Maybe some of the assistants are thinking about getting out of Dodge themselves at this point. I believe the non-Marshall assistants may be as perplexed as all of us are with what is going on. Are there any interviews with them or is Kim keeping the assistants as well as the players away from the media?
 
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