The Wait...

#76

LA Vol

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#76
Other schools routinely decline WNIT invites. UGA and LSU have both said they won't accept a WNIT bid. Looks like UT will make the NCAAT, but if not, Fulmer absolutely should decline and focus on fixing the program.
 
#77

lvocd

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#77
Ugh. This is certainly nothing new, but I just heard some scuttlebutt out of Knoxville that many people around the sports programs still believe that Phil will give Holly another year if the team just makes the NCAA Tournament.

If she isn't replaced after this season there will just be new excuses next season for losing games they shouldn't even have play the first-stringers to win. Instead of "We're so young. The team just needs to learn! Wait until next year!"... it'll be, "Well, we lost TWO SENIORS and replaced them with freshmen -- and then THEY needed to learn. Wait until next year!"

I am so sick of this broken record, and all my people are, too. I'm afraid we all may thrown in the towel on the program if a change isn't made after this season is over. I hate to even think that, but I don't think I can make it through another season of blaming the players -- in ANY way -- for the program's rapid decline. :(
 
#78

glv98

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#78
Westbrook and Davis, starters or not, are still underclassmen.
Well technically, and definitely on paper. But realistically, they are half way thru their careers and have started and played extensively in 50+ games in every imaginable place and setting. And participated in hundreds of practices. Have easily as much game experience already as many SEC senior starters have. Safe to say their development as players, especially as complete and consistent players, is far behind what their potential and their in-game experience suggest it should be.
By this logic, they should have just sat the whole season out so they would not have been tainted by Holly.
Sadly, yes, there is a credible argument that the less time the current coaching staff and the current players spend together, the better. We've seen multiple highly rated and obviously talented players not only fail to get better under the current regime, but arguably regress.

To me that's the best argument for NOT accepting a WNIT invite, and hell even decline an NCAA Objectively we really don't deserve it and the sooner this mess is over the better. Way too late in the day for "Look! We played a decent quarter! NOW they get it!" We all know even if we won a game the inevitable end is another ugly and disheartening loss full of hard to watch play. No one needs that.

On the other hand:
It would be showing that despite our poor season we think we are above the wnit. I think that would display poor sportsmanship. I say accept whatever bid it is and do it with grace and class. Team and fans alike. At least maybe that will bring something that can be admired. Swallow the bitter pill. Maybe that will make them want it more next year
Exactly. And since we all like to think we know what Pat would do, THIS is what I think Pat would do. Would love to have their asses for a dozen or so more practices! Also would totally do the bitter pill of reality route, plus would never want to disrespect any aspect of the game.

Also, if you truly swallow the "we're just young" hokum, first please walk out of your cave dwelling into the sunlight, and second hope for ANY post season bid to occur since you think more Holly developmental strategy and practice time is the magic potion.
 
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#79

glv98

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#79
Ugh. This is certainly nothing new, but I just heard some scuttlebutt out of Knoxville that many people around the sports programs still believe that Phil will give Holly another year if the team just makes the NCAA Tournament.

If she isn't replaced after this season there will just be new excuses next season for losing games they shouldn't even have play the first-stringers to win. Instead of "We're so young. The team just needs to learn! Wait until next year!"... it'll be, "Well, we lost TWO SENIORS and replaced them with freshmen -- and then THEY needed to learn. Wait until next year!"

I am so sick of this broken record, and all my people are, too. I'm afraid we all may thrown in the towel on the program if a change isn't made after this season is over. I hate to even think that, but I don't think I can make it through another season of blaming the players -- in ANY way -- for the program's rapid decline. :(
Oh please God NOOOOO. Can UTAD possibly be this out of touch with the outside world? I know not one person in life who thinks anything besides please end the misery now! Not basing on this board at all since the tiny sliver of us disgruntled who post mean zero. But in work life, social life, anywhere, even people who don't know or care about LVs think Holly should go. Is it just me out of touch?

If we get yet another season of this trainwreck, I don't think I can ethically allow myself to watch. These kids, primo athletes in waiting, are being shamefully, chronically, and knowingly underserved by the University of Tennessee.
 
#80

madtownvol

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#80
Well technically, and definitely on paper. But realistically, they are half way thru their careers and have started and played extensively in 50+ games in every imaginable place and setting. And participated in hundreds of practices. Have easily as much game experience already as many SEC senior starters have. Safe to say their development as players, especially as complete and consistent players, is far behind what their potential and their in-game experience suggest it should be.

Sadly, yes, there is a credible argument that the less time the current coaching staff and the current players spend together, the better. We've seen multiple highly rated and obviously talented players not only fail to get better under the current regime, but arguably regress.

To me that's the best argument for NOT accepting a WNIT invite, and hell even decline an NCAA Objectively we really don't deserve it and the sooner this mess is over the better. Way too late in the day for "Look! We played a decent quarter! NOW they get it!" We all know even if we won a game the inevitable end is another ugly and disheartening loss full of hard to watch play. No one needs that.

On the other hand:

Exactly. And since we all like to think we know what Pat would do, THIS is what I think Pat would do. Would love to have their asses for a dozen or so more practices! Also would totally do the bitter pill of reality route, plus would never want to disrespect any aspect of the game.

Also, if you truly swallow the "we're just young" hokum, first please walk out of your cave dwelling into the sunlight, and second hope for ANY post season bid to occur since you think more Holly developmental strategy and practice time is the magic potion.
I would suggest that you are under estimating the learning curve. A freshman is drinking by the proverbial fire house; everything is happening fast and furious with all kinds of adjustments on and off the court. Freshman players are also behind the curve in physical development (sheer time in the weight room) and game knowledge compared to upper class players. As sophomores, they can stat to process situations more effectively and that trend experience based trend continues on. Ask any coach, would you rather a have a team that relied and freshman and sophomores or upperclassman.

Now, since this scenario could be seen as a justification for Holly, I can understand a tendency to say, "no a freshman by the end of the season is fully developed, no excuses'. However, we need to separate Holly from the basic truism that players gain more experience (and develop) as they play longer.

And it is just not true that players always regress under Holly-- on this team, Cheridene Green, Evina, Meme Jackson are all better players than they were in the first season as LVs. Could they have been still better with a different coach, sure, but nonetheless they have improved.

And again, we need to separate frustrations over Holly being coach from the program itself. Your post is basically saying, shut the program down until Holly is gone. However, Holly is here (for now), the players are here and the program is not just going to stop existing.

As a new coach coming in, I would much rather have a team that had just been to the NCAA's than one that sat at home.
 
#82

glv98

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#82
We could agree to disagree about the marginal improvement and the rate at which its occurred of the individual players you've named. But to me the fact that a credible argument even exists over whether there may or may be not be real improvement halfway thru their careers, or at the end of it in MeMe's case, says it all. Improvement should not only be obvious, it should be effective in helping win games.

My simple argument is that no one has developed anywhere near as much nearly as quickly as they need to, or that LV players use to, in order to be solid SEC players. Exact same case, not surprisingly, for the team as whole. Spurts and starts, especially against weaker opponents that give glimpses and hopes, but nothing near consistent and successful over time. Maybe the SEC learning curve has stepped up and that's just one more area the current LV staff can't keep up with.

I would never be so presumptuous as to say the LVs should shut down, LOL. I just question if I'd feel ethical being supportive of any UT program that I feel is for whatever reason purposely underserving students. Bad enough my tax dollars have to do it.
 
#84

madtownvol

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#84
Charlie Creme has the LVs as an 11 seen in the Chicago region. He projects the first game would be against #6 Florida State and should the LVs pull an upset, they would likely face # 3 Maryland.

Creme is usually in the ballpark on the actual seedings. If he is right, one and done is a definite possibility and the path to the Sweet 16 (via Maryland) looks bleak.
 
#86

Amb3096

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#86
I would suggest that you are under estimating the learning curve. A freshman is drinking by the proverbial fire house; everything is happening fast and furious with all kinds of adjustments on and off the court. Freshman players are also behind the curve in physical development (sheer time in the weight room) and game knowledge compared to upper class players. As sophomores, they can stat to process situations more effectively and that trend experience based trend continues on. Ask any coach, would you rather a have a team that relied and freshman and sophomores or upperclassman.
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson from UConn were 1st team AAs their sophomore year. As freshmen, Collier was a reserve and Samuelson was pretty much an after-thought on the offense if their seniors needed to find an open player. I don't think either of these players are special in this regard. WCBB is full of highly rated recruits that were stars their freshman or sophomore years.
 
#87

glv98

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#87
However, Holly is here (for now), the players are here and the program is not just going to stop existing.
Indeed not going to stop existing and also not going to stand still. After this year, the very reasonable fear is the speed with which its going backwards. That's why I can't stand to watch closely another year of doing the same thing while headed rapidly in reverse over the cliff.
 
#88

madtownvol

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#88
Napheesa Collier and Katie Lou Samuelson from UConn were 1st team AAs their sophomore year. As freshmen, Collier was a reserve and Samuelson was pretty much an after-thought on the offense if their seniors needed to find an open player. I don't think either of these players are special in this regard. WCBB is full of highly rated recruits that were stars their freshman or sophomore years.

Sigh. No one said that a freshman can't be an impact player (Hayes and Westbrook were for the LVs last season and Jamie Nared before that). But was Samuelson a better all round player as a sophomore than as a freshman, or as a junior or a Senior. Would you rather have the freshman or senior version of Arike Ogunbowale, etc. etc,. etc.?

I find it hard to believe that there is a debate on this board over the idea, that in general, players are better as seniors than they are as freshman.

Again try to separate Holly and the current state of the program from the more general fact that players physically and mentally as they mature from being 18 year olds to 22 year olds.
 
#92

lvocd

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#92
Oh please God NOOOOO. Can UTAD possibly be this out of touch with the outside world? I know not one person in life who thinks anything besides please end the misery now! Not basing on this board at all since the tiny sliver of us disgruntled who post mean zero. But in work life, social life, anywhere, even people who don't know or care about LVs think Holly should go. Is it just me out of touch?

If we get yet another season of this trainwreck, I don't think I can ethically allow myself to watch. These kids, primo athletes in waiting, are being shamefully, chronically, and knowingly underserved by the University of Tennessee.
Sounds like you and I are on the same wavelength. I have actually begun to experience symptoms of anxiety nearly every time I even think of having to watch another year of Lady Vol basketball in steady decline under Holly. And like you, I know of not one person in my real life who thinks she should be given another year -- NOT ONE -- and I know lots and lots of Lady Vol fans and people who know a lot about the Lady Vols.

If a change isn't made I honestly don't think I can afford to put myself through it anymore. : (
 
#94

glv98

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#94
I find it hard to believe that there is a debate on this board over the idea, that in general, players are better as seniors than they are as freshman.
The very point for me is that yes, more experience should and usually does lead to significant improvement but the current LVs seem to be pretty far behind on that curve. Stipulating the former makes the later all the more frustrating. Yes MeMe Jackson should be way better as a Sr than as a Frosh given her extensive playing time, but is she? I think there's legit debate there.
 
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#98
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#98
Oh please God NOOOOO. Can UTAD possibly be this out of touch with the outside world? I know not one person in life who thinks anything besides please end the misery now! Not basing on this board at all since the tiny sliver of us disgruntled who post mean zero. But in work life, social life, anywhere, even people who don't know or care about LVs think Holly should go. Is it just me out of touch?

If we get yet another season of this trainwreck, I don't think I can ethically allow myself to watch. These kids, primo athletes in waiting, are being shamefully, chronically, and knowingly undeserved by the University of Tennessee.
For most of this year I tried to look for any hints of growth or coaching
I was even referred to as a Holly-Lover

It was when, what you just put into words, that I could not continue to support her
In my daily walk, those who did converse with me on BB all said the same thing..."Why do they not fire her?"

When I finally did say CHW needs to go, I was accused of throwing her under the bus
but I had to at that point
The bus was full of children who's lives were being affected
they need a new driver

The players don't/won't/can't say this because they are kids
Ask a kid who has a "questionable" parent if they love their parent and they will 99% of the time say yes
and they do
They love them and hate them

If the players are thinking as I am,,,They're in the toughest spot .. because if they perform well in the NCAA's they play into CHW's future fortune
However
if they play poorly (in thinking that it will aid them in "change"),,, they will be forever frowned upon

That is a horrendous position to put a young woman in
 
#99

mike099

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#99
Buzz on the street is that resignation was tendered today.[/QUOTE

Please, no teasing. I think Holly not only needs to think of the program, but also her personal mental and physical health. Even though she supposedly does not pay attention to social media, the situation has got to be taking its toll on her.
 

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