The TP officially turns on Boehner

#101
#101
sjt18 said:
Islam is not synonomous with Arab. The Arabic tribes came long before Islam. The had completely different religious traditions prior to being "converted" by the Sword of Mohammad.



I am not trying to bust your chops. You just have to be very technically correct when talking with some of these guys. Among ethnic/racial Arabs today, you will find Muslims, Christians, and even Jews. Islam does not date back to Abraham. Mohammad and other teachers after him capitalized on Arab claims and jealousy against Jews.
Click to expand...

Yes, we agree.

But if Ishmael never existed then would Islam have existed? I personally believe no. I believe due to his lack of faith in God this branch sprung out and became a thorn in the side of the jews.

I see your point here. Hope you understand mine now..
 
Last edited:
#102
#102
therealUT said:
Do you only use "conversion by the sword" when you speak of Islam? Plenty of Christians were converted through violent coercion, as well.

It seems as though every time you mention Islam, you do so in a way in which you deride it and act as though Christianity is somehow above Islam. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism all have their skeletons, their hatred, and their violence to account for; none of these communities are innocent of mass atrocities against humanity.
Click to expand...

This is what i love about a tp conversation with liberals.

20 seconds of fiscal dialogue and then straight to "so how you feel about muslims?" like muslims are the main problem we are facing now.
 
#103
#103
therealUT said:
Do you only use "conversion by the sword" when you speak of Islam?
Click to expand...
No. As a matter of fact, I don't. In fact, I preached at a small church for some time. I spent very, very little time talking about Muslims. I spent more time talking about Catholics and liberal protestants. I spent the most time talking about the Pharisees and Sadducees among Baptists. Biblically and historically speaking... when biblical Christians practice biblical principles and make biblical stands... God blesses.

Christianity is an inside out religion. The NT focuses on personal spiritual conversion and growth as a means for changing ourselves and the world around us. In response to a question about Christian political activism, John MacArthur once said that the best thing a Christian can do to change the country/society is to be a good witness to their neighbor and live their testimony. I would say that's pretty close to the bull's eye.
Plenty of Christians were converted through violent coercion, as well.
Click to expand...
You and I have discussed the definition before. You bristle at my suggestion that Catholicism is not "Christian" in the biblical sense in part because of their soteriology and in part because they have a history of coercion.

Someone who becomes a Christian at the point of a sword... is not a Christian. I would submit that someone who "converts" someone at the point of the sword is not a Christian either.

Protestant, state endorsed churches have also "converted" by force. The Church of England was very abusive toward Catholics as well as dissenters such as Baptists, Separatists, Independents, et al.

Again, a plain and normative reading of the NT precludes from being "Christian" the act of forcing or coercing someone to become Christian.

So my bottom line answer is... Yes people have been converted by force by people claiming to be Christian... but No... neither party is "Christian" by the biblical definition.

It seems as though every time you mention Islam, you do so in a way in which you deride it and act as though Christianity is somehow above Islam.
Click to expand...
Biblical Christianity when practiced is superior to Islam with regard to the treatment of non-believers, enemies, women, sinners,... It is benign with respect to civil gov't.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism all have their skeletons, their hatred, and their violence to account for; none of these communities are innocent of mass atrocities against humanity.
Click to expand...

The religion established by Jesus Christ has none of those. Men have those. Men calling themselves Christians have had and have them.

By now if nothing else, you know I am a purist. I strive for consistency in whatever it is I believe. I may well be wrong about a whole bunch of things that I have and state a strong opinion about... but at a minimum those potentially incorrect opinions are consistent with other things I believe and with the world as I am able to perceive it.

With that in mind, I reject without reservation the notion that a "real" Christ redeemed believer will use force to convert someone. It is completely antithetical to who Christ was and what He taught.
 
Last edited:
#104
#104
NEOCON said:
This is what i love about a tp conversation with liberals.

20 seconds of fiscal dialogue and then straight to "so how you feel about muslims?" like muslims are the main problem we are facing now.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. I think most TPer's and we sympathizers would say that Muslims and even terrorism on the whole pales in comparison to the social and economic policies implemented by the left over the past 60-100 years.
 
#105
#105
sjt18 said:
Homosexuals who have desired to change have been helped by organizations to change. I do not know any of the particulars about Bachmann's methods.... but homosexuals HAVE successfully changed. If that is their desire... I am not sure why you all would object to their finding help with it.
Click to expand...

I've seen straight people change right in front of my eyes, also. Normally because I was egging the girls on when we were all bombed. I guess when alcohol and girls are present I'm some kind of holy man.
 
#106
#106
PoochPunt3rdDown said:
I've seen straight people change right in front of my eyes, also. Normally because I was egging the girls on when we were all bombed. I guess when alcohol and girls are present I'm some kind of holy man.
Click to expand...

Or Satan depends on which way you look at it.
 
#110
#110
The Catholic church is a cult. I went to easter vigil with my girlfriend - the adult baptisms were the most awkward thing I'd ever seen in my life.
 
#115
#115
lawgator1 said:
He quoted it,with approval.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Haven't you decried "business as usual" before?

McCain is most definitely "business as usual". He'll be long dead before anyone pays for the damage he's done as a politician.
 
#116
#116
Boehner would not be bringing this up if he didn't think it would pass. Pretty evident it will be purely partisan and also pretty obvious that the plan is to say, hey, here is what we propose, where is your proposal?

Going to put Obama in a tough spot, because he can;t get passed anything he would readily sign. So he might have to go with this and just start the '12 battle over this problem anew, putting it on the GOP to explain why they won't agree to closing the tax loopholes or retreating on the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

My guess is that he ultimately is going to have to say okay to this bill, just to avoid the crisis. Boehner will be able to claim at least a marginal victory, but its not something anyone, even the TP folks, will feel good about. From there, Obama will go petal to the metal on the Bush tax cuts and try to frame the larger debate about that.
 
#118
#118
lawgator1 said:
Boehner would not be bringing this up if he didn't think it would pass. Pretty evident it will be purely partisan and also pretty obvious that the plan is to say, hey, here is what we propose, where is your proposal?
Click to expand...
And rightly so... except that he can now add that they once endorsed these cuts but now are playing political games.

Going to put Obama in a tough spot, because he can;t get passed anything he would readily sign. So he might have to go with this and just start the '12 battle over this problem anew, putting it on the GOP to explain why they won't agree to closing the tax loopholes or retreating on the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
Click to expand...
I know you think that's a winning hand for Obama... but it isn't. Tax reform is home turf for the GOP. He doesn't want to play there considering his ties to tax cheats and companies that get breaks while supporting him.

My guess is that he ultimately is going to have to say okay to this bill, just to avoid the crisis. Boehner will be able to claim at least a marginal victory, but its not something anyone, even the TP folks, will feel good about. From there, Obama will go petal to the metal on the Bush tax cuts and try to frame the larger debate about that.
Click to expand...

IF the GOP has wised up at all, they will immediately go out and start talking about tax reform. They will propose a flatter and lower tax. They will propose to close loopholes and special deals that Dems have cut to get business support.

They will also repeat ad nauseum that "We can't negotiate cuts until the President puts his ideas on the table".

John Fund made a great point about Obama the other day. He said Obama is like a poker player who comes to a table and starts bullying. He raises and re-raises until the other players fold. Now the TP won't let the GOP fold. They have made the GOP "call" Obama on his bluff. BO is now caught holding a weak hand facing 3 A's... so he refuses to show his cards. He can't win legitimately... he can only try to avoid losing until the other side gives up and walks away.

Obama has no plan he's willing to present in detail... so he is now trying to delay in hopes the GOP will do something stupid like let him off the hook.

They need to have one talking point. "Mr President, show us your plan".
 
#119
#119
Boehner delays vote on his debt limit.

Can not get enough TP members to vote for it. I heard he was 3-5 votes shy of passing it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
Last edited:
#120
#120
sjt18 said:
So local zoning is now a national issue?

I think his position is that the people of that town have the right to zone their town.

I would disagree with the denial altogether. I would even disagree with it if there was a good chance that radicals were there. I am not "TP" per se but tend to end up defending their cause here... do I speak for everyone in the movement?

IMO there is direct and tangible proof that it is. Has someone proposed legislation that would make that stance law?

The TP isn't an organized party. It is a movement. How do you officially distance yourself unless you have a recognized, singular governing body?
Click to expand...
Do you really think it is a zoning issue?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#121
#121
emainvol said:
Do you really think it is a zoning issue?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

I honestly do not know. IIRC, that is their defense.

Unlike LG, I can't read peoples' minds and determine what their true motives are. Honestly however... if I were a radical Muslim... I don't think I would set up shop that close to a bunch of redneck hillbillies who could hide bodies where no one would ever find them.
 
#122
#122
sjt18 said:
I honestly do not know. IIRC, that is their defense.

Unlike LG, I can't read peoples' minds and determine what their true motives are. Honestly however... if I were a radical Muslim... I don't think I would set up shop that close to a bunch of redneck hillbillies who could hide bodies where no one would ever find them.
Click to expand...

Freudian slip?

Of course their defense is not going to be "we hate Muslims".
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#123
#123
therealUT said:
Freudian slip?
Click to expand...
Nope. I am not suggesting all or any Muslim in M'boro is a radical. Only if I were that I don't think I'd set up business there.

Of course I relish in being a libertarian radical if that was your point...

Of course their defense is not going to be "we hate Muslims".
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

In that case, it comes back to a matter of rights. Does that municipality have a right to zone with reasonable standards that it would apply to any and everyone? It is a VERY slippery slope if we start letting the gov't judge thoughts.

BTW, if I were those particular Muslims... I would probably just find another site.
 
#124
#124
As of 7:04, Boehner doesn't have the votes to get his own proposal out of the House because of the TP.

What a freakin' train wreck.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement





Back
Top