The Politics of Debt

#1
LouderVol

LouderVol

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#1
I wanted to get the forums thoughts on debt. In particular from the left leaning folks. Mainly speaking personal, but also as a nation etc.

IMO debt is bad, and is as close to indentured servitude as we get. debt limits your freedoms and makes you dependent on whoever holds your debt. Modern day indentured servitude has people making minimum payments on what they owe so their payments compound. Allowing people to get behind and take on more debt than they could possibly repay.

College costs have skyrocketed and most students leave with massive debts. But society pushes more people to go to college. We are pushing debt for limited ROI education.

Credit cards have blossomed all over the place. Now retailers are pushing their own, I wouldnt be shocked to see stores require their credit card to shop there. You already see card specific benefits you cant even pay for with places like Lowes and Home Depot delivery options. Another chance to get in debt.

The afore mentioned credit cards and minimum payment traps. So many of my friends and coworkers only make the minimum payments on their cards it boggles my mind.

Negative interest rates. Already a thing in Europe and part of Asia. It keeps getting brought up here. I will also lump in anything additionally taxing 401ks and the like. (Beyond the taxes already there). Directly punishes savers, pushing more people to a life of debt. If you cant save you have to depend on credit.

The nation is spending records amounts of money, and we see money grabs everywhere. From both sides.

So thoughts? Again looking mostly for the left leaning posters to comment. Do you think we are on a sustainable path, as individuals, as society, as a nation? When is enough debt actually enough? Does the end always justify the ever increasing debt means?
 
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#2
#2
There’s nothing wrong with debt if you have the present or future cash flows to pay it off. If you can get a mortgage for 3.5% and make 5-6% on the cash you could have bought the house with in an index fund you do that all day long. And in kind of a sick twist our economy is so dependent on consumer spending that too much saving would hurt us. Our deficit spending as a country is testing the limits of fiat currency. At what point is the full faith of the US government not enough?
 
#3
#3
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bak $100,000,000 that's the banks problem. - J. Paul Getty
 
#5
#5
The dems definitely don't care. Lately neither party cares because they've insulted themselves from the citizens. There are a few conservatives that care but they're becoming a smaller minority
 
#6
#6
Does it matter when we're operating under a fiat regime? Pretty much every country just eases away the pain when necessary.
 
#7
#7
You misspelled leverage. Except in the case of consumer and government debt. The Treasury and Budget are screwed if interest rates take off. I don't mind the $20T+ National Debt with rates just above nothing. Hopefully the budget will be balanced by the time rates go up again. If rates get back into the teens everybody better have had put everything in physical precious metal.
 
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#8
#8
Thunder Good-Oil said:
You misspelled leverage. Except in the case of consumer and government debt. The Treasury and Budget are screwed if interest rates take off. I don't mind the $20T+ National Debt with rates just above nothing. Hopefully the budget will be balanced by the time rates go up again. If rates get back into the teens everybody better have had put everything in physical precious metal.
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Our ability to pay it off, whether its low rates or in the teens is pretty much nil. the fastest growing, percentage wise, budget item is the interest on debt. with low rates. yeah its going from bad to worse. but the bad is already so bad most people just try to ignore it.
 
#9
#9
LouderVol said:
Our ability to pay it off, whether its low rates or in the teens is pretty much nil. the fastest growing, percentage wise, budget item is the interest on debt. with low rates. yeah its going from bad to worse. but the bad is already so bad most people just try to ignore it.
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Don't need to pay off the ND. Just need to grow the economy and stop growing the debt. It really needs to be cut as well, but voters don't want to give up their free stuff.
 
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#10
#10
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Don't need to pay off the ND. Just need to grow the economy and stop growing the debt. It really needs to be cut as well, but voters don't want to give up their free stuff.
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I know we will always have some debt. but a negative gdp to debt ratio seems like its a major negative.

and its part of my OP. at what point does it become an issue?
 
#11
#11
LouderVol said:
I know we will always have some debt. but a negative gdp to debt ratio seems like its a major negative.

and its part of my OP. at what point does it become an issue?
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Want to really crap your pants? The off the books national debt, which is money owed for future commitments, some speculate could be $70 trillion dollars. But yea more free ****!

Off-Balance-Sheet Federal Liabilities
 
#12
#12
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Hopefully the budget will be balanced
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Just my opinion, but anyone that believes this will happen is living in fantasy land. I don't say it like that to be disrespectful.

It's just the R and D will never agree, and also because neither has any interest in a balanced budget.
 
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#13
#13
At least most of it is held by US citizens. I guess that's better than China... but I wouldn't mind stiffing them if they don't alter their mission.

I'd keep an eye on inflation. Real pain comes when that elevates. When Carter was POTUS interest rates, inflation, and unemployment were all soaring. Somehow Ronnie managed to drop taxes AND build up the military until the USSR was crushed. He'd maybe be the 5th on Mount Rushmore if he hadn't kicked the mentally ill out of institutions and to the streets.
 
#14
#14
I don't worry much about consumer debt levels EXCEPT that so much of the economy is dependant on their sheepish spending. It's really getting challenging on where to stash capital. IPOs have become a vehicle for early PE and VC investors to scam the public. Safe equities (consumer staples, utilities, RE) and low risk debt are VERY expensive. The strong dollar makes international not all that attractive.
 
#16
#16
LouderVol said:
I wanted to get the forums thoughts on debt. In particular from the left leaning folks. Mainly speaking personal, but also as a nation etc.

IMO debt is bad, and is as close to indentured servitude as we get. debt limits your freedoms and makes you dependent on whoever holds your debt. Modern day indentured servitude has people making minimum payments on what they owe so their payments compound. Allowing people to get behind and take on more debt than they could possibly repay.

College costs have skyrocketed and most students leave with massive debts. But society pushes more people to go to college. We are pushing debt for limited ROI education.

Credit cards have blossomed all over the place. Now retailers are pushing their own, I wouldnt be shocked to see stores require their credit card to shop there. You already see card specific benefits you cant even pay for with places like Lowes and Home Depot delivery options. Another chance to get in debt.

The afore mentioned credit cards and minimum payment traps. So many of my friends and coworkers only make the minimum payments on their cards it boggles my mind.

Negative interest rates. Already a thing in Europe and part of Asia. It keeps getting brought up here. I will also lump in anything additionally taxing 401ks and the like. (Beyond the taxes already there). Directly punishes savers, pushing more people to a life of debt. If you cant save you have to depend on credit.

The nation is spending records amounts of money, and we see money grabs everywhere. From both sides.

So thoughts? Again looking mostly for the left leaning posters to comment. Do you think we are on a sustainable path, as individuals, as society, as a nation? When is enough debt actually enough? Does the end always justify the ever increasing debt means?
Click to expand...

The U.S. Is on the Edge of the Global Negative Interest-Rate Club
 
#17
#17
Anybody care to take a guess of the only two presidents over the past 40 years to reduce the deficit? Hint: Obama and Clinton.
 
#20
#20
I thought fiscal conservatives were all about reducing the debt but looking at the latest numbers it has only climbed in the last couple of years. Why?
 
#24
#24
1972 Grad said:
Now do which ones have reduced the debt.
Click to expand...

Let's put the facts out there why don't we.

Clinton fought Newt tooth and nail on spending then realized he liked being POTUS more than he wanted to win that battle. Newt gets as much credit as Clinton does for the reduction because if the Dems would have kept control over congress there wouldn't have been one.

Obama benefited from budget sequestration.
 
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#25
#25
PeaceCorpsVol said:
I thought fiscal conservatives were all about reducing the debt but looking at the latest numbers it has only climbed in the last couple of years. Why?
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Because there are only a few true blue fiscal conservatives in DC. All others are two faced frauds. The only thing they are concerned with conserving is their power as a politician.
 
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