The Official 2nd Amendment Appreciation Thread

#6,601
#6,601
InVOLuntary said:
I've bench shot it at 100. The barrel is a stainless fluted heavy at 20". 1:8 twist. I haven't shot it in a while but I can't recall the exact grouping, just I was surprised it wasn't better. Seems like it was 4" or better. I'll shoot it again and report back.
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Not entirely unusual for bulk pack ammo to have nasty groupings, though that sounds way bad.

Try the 68 grain Black Hills stuff just to see.
 
#6,602
#6,602
Grand Vol said:
Scope dope is what he's talking about. In a nutshell, it's a preset card with different ballistics of different rounds. Making a long story short, one might have a "primary load" that hits the center each and every time. Basically, your zero load. A dope card can (or will) give you ballistic data on a different load and what adjustments are needed to hit where you're aiming.

I.E. your "go to zero load" is your 62 grain stuff. You'd have a dope card that gives data for longer range shooting (holdovers, drop, drift, etc) with that load and also can give data (five clicks up, two right type of thing) for different loads like your M193 spec stuff. It allows you to "reset" your zero to a different type and weight of round without having to fire a round to confirm it since you already did it in advance.

You can have dope cards for a single load (windage and other environmental factors) or multiple dope cards for different rounds you might fire. It's not bad to keep track of such things if you routinely engage long range targets. Long range is obviously dependent on the rifle and caliber you are using.

A tall target test is a test to determine if your scope clicks are what the manufacturer says it is (1/4 MOA, 1/2 MOA, 1 mil, etc).

Calibrate Your Clicks with Tall Target Test << Daily Bulletin

It's nice to know exactly how your scope dials in, but...we're talking dedicated long range shooting stuff here. Like normally further than you'll be expected to engage. My opinion of course.
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'preciate it.
 
#6,603
#6,603
InVOLuntary said:
I've bench shot it at 100. The barrel is a stainless fluted heavy at 20". 1:8 twist. I haven't shot it in a while but I can't recall the exact grouping, just I was surprised it wasn't better. Seems like it was 4" or better. I'll shoot it again and report back.
Click to expand...

The Black Hills is good stuff. Order a box or two of this for a cheaper alternative:

20 Round Box - 5.56mm 69 Grain Sierra HPBT Match SMK OTM Razorcore IMI Ammo For Sale | SGAmmo.com

It also comes in a 77 gr round. It’s the same bullet that is used in the Federal Gold Medal Match which is generally considered the reference standard.

My daughter uses this as for an every day practice round. Consistently sub-MOA out to 800 yards.
 
#6,604
#6,604
GreyWolf1129 said:
Uhhh...can you put that in English for me?

My goal with the scoped AR is to be able to hit within 6 or so inches at 300 yards.

You reduce all that gumbledeegook to words I can understand, and I'll teach you how to find your Latitude off the North Star, fair enough?
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LOL.

GV gave you a good explanation. I'll make it real simple. Shoot the gun and document the results with different ammo at different distances. That's it.

Now a few simple explanations of my post.

DOPE = Data On Previous Engagement
There is nothing more accurate for calling a shot than your actual DOPE. Regardless of calculations used to call a shot, no single bullet will act the same in two different barrels from two different shooters. Two people shooting the same gun with same ammo can get to different points of impact simply because they mount the rifle differently. Heck, one person can have different points of impact simply by changing position.

Accuracy vs Precision
An accurate turret will change the point of impact of the scope exactly what it says it will. If it says 1/4 inch per click, the adjustment will be exactly 1/4 inch.

A precise turret will change the point of impact exactly the same amount each and every time.

It's nice to have both, but from 100-300 yards, if your turrets are precise, the accuracy isn't as important.

If it were me, I'd get a solid 100 yard zero and work my way out documenting the adjustments. The .223 round is pretty flat from 100-200. I'd guess a 3" drop in your rifle. At 300, you're probably around 12".

ETA.... If you want to be able to hit a 6 inch target at 300, your rifle/ammo/shooter combination needs to be capable of a 2 inch group at 100 yards..... at the least.
 
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#6,605
#6,605
InVOLuntary said:
I've bench shot it at 100. The barrel is a stainless fluted heavy at 20". 1:8 twist. I haven't shot it in a while but I can't recall the exact grouping, just I was surprised it wasn't better. Seems like it was 4" or better. I'll shoot it again and report back.
Click to expand...

That ammo is capable of better. Like GV said, it's probably 2 MOA or even better. First check to see if anything is loose in the mount. It could be that your rifle isn't capable but most likely a need to spend more time behind it with some focus on fundamentals.

Today's semi auto rifles are capable of great precision..... but...... they also expose weaknesses in fundamentals.

Compared to a bolt gun, there are two large differences that make them harder to get precision.
1) More working parts. You have to have good parts but more importantly, they have to work well together as a system repeatedly.
2) Recoil Impulse. A bolt gun has one. A semi-auto has three. If "follow Through" is not maintained throughout the three impulses, it will punish you with inaccuracy.
 
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#6,606
#6,606
GreyWolf1129 said:
No worries, I enjoy a good dogpile from time to time, especially when I can start it and then just sit back and watch everyone else get muddy...

So I still have "those clunky old Colt handguards" simply because I haven't found anything I like better. Yet. Poor old GV had to go rummaging around in his basement to find me a mount for my Scout light thanks to my inability to move out of the '70's. I knew he'd come up with something.

Every time I'm in Academy or any place that has shooting supplies, I look. I look online. I look at other people's guns. I ask around. I have a friend on the GSP SWAT team, which led me to my Aimpoint PRO and Geissele trigger, and some of those guys are carrying SBR's with Daniel Defense (?) hand guards. Just not my style. Yet.

When I see it, I'll know. Until then, I'll just mope along with those ugly-butt Colt things. At least it's set up to shoot well.

It's all good.
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Ive got big hands. The Colt grips fit me just fine. I think these small handed Susie’s are the ones with the problem here. And... it’s a Colt!
 
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#6,607
#6,607
Speaking of 1911’s, CMP has already gotten over 100 order packets. Lol. I don’t think you should be able to own a gun if you can’t read.
 
#6,608
#6,608
txbo said:
LOL.

GV gave you a good explanation. I'll make it real simple. Shoot the gun and document the results with different ammo at different distances. That's it.

Now a few simple explanations of my post.

DOPE = Data On Previous Engagement
There is nothing more accurate for calling a shot than your actual DOPE. Regardless of calculations used to call a shot, no single bullet will act the same in two different barrels from two different shooters. Two people shooting the same gun with same ammo can get to different points of impact simply because they mount the rifle differently. Heck, one person can have different points of impact simply by changing position.

Accuracy vs Precision
An accurate turret will change the point of impact of the scope exactly what it says it will. If it says 1/4 inch per click, the adjustment will be exactly 1/4 inch.

A precise turret will change the point of impact exactly the same amount each and every time.

It's nice to have both, but from 100-300 yards, if your turrets are precise, the accuracy isn't as important.

If it were me, I'd get a solid 100 yard zero and work my way out documenting the adjustments. The .223 round is pretty flat from 100-200. I'd guess a 3" drop in your rifle. At 300, you're probably around 12".

ETA.... If you want to be able to hit a 6 inch target at 300, your rifle/ammo/shooter combination needs to be capable of a 2 inch group at 100 yards..... at the least.
Click to expand...

Good grief, you and GV know ypur stuff. When i can get my rifle, will need y'alls help...all i have ever had was an SKS with a 30 rd magazine...never shot more than 100 yards. Didn't have a scope, but ibwould tear hell out of stuff from 100 yards in...Lol..
 
#6,609
#6,609
marcusluvsvols said:
Good grief, you and GV know ypur stuff. When i can get my rifle, will need y'alls help...all i have ever had was an SKS with a 30 rd magazine...never shot more than 100 yards. Didn't have a scope, but ibwould tear hell out of stuff from 100 yards in...Lol..
Click to expand...

Hoss, you just jumped in the shark tank, and you're wearing a bacon-flavored Speedo.

A year or so ago, I had money in the bank, and started talking to GV about my AR.

Today, I almost had to do a gas drive-off just to get home.

Nice knowing you...

:)
 
#6,610
#6,610
GreyWolf1129 said:
Hoss, you just jumped in the shark tank, and you're wearing a bacon-flavored Speedo.

A year or so ago, I had money in the bank, and started talking to GV about my AR.

Today, I almost had to do a gas drive-off just to get home.

Nice knowing you...

:)
Click to expand...

Nah, Marcus gets free advice.
 
#6,612
#6,612
GreyWolf1129 said:
Hoss, you just jumped in the shark tank, and you're wearing a bacon-flavored Speedo.

A year or so ago, I had money in the bank, and started talking to GV about my AR.

Today, I almost had to do a gas drive-off just to get home.

Nice knowing you...

:)
Click to expand...

Shhhhhh! (Fresh bait)
 
#6,613
#6,613
I'll post the details later, but I finally got to shoot AR #2 today, albeit at 100 yds. Took a while to dial it in, and learn the nuances of the SpotOn app, but the end result is that with the 55gr FMJ's, I am grouping right at 1MOA at 100 yds (supported). The Federal 62gr JSP (556SBCT) is in the 1.5 - 2.0 MOA range, but I have read that...while it's a devastating barrier-blind round, it just won't produce a tight pattern at ranges >100 yds.

Next weekend I'll get out to a 200yd range with it and see what it does. I have a box of IMI 68gr GDHP's inbound, just to see what they will do at that range.

So...AR #1 (Patrol/HD): 55gr TAP and 62gr JSP's. AR#2 (AT&T - "reach out and touch someone."): 55gr FMJ and 62gr JSP's. Until I can try out the 68gr IMI's.

Happy where I am. But I have got-to-find-a-bipod for AR #2. At 9X, my sight picture looks like I'm writing my name in the snow...ha. Looks like the Bravo keymod hand guard is in the future.

Thanks for all the help.
 
#6,614
#6,614
GreyWolf1129 said:
I'll post the details later, but I finally got to shoot AR #2 today, albeit at 100 yds. Took a while to dial it in, and learn the nuances of the SpotOn app, but the end result is that with the 55gr FMJ's, I am grouping right at 1MOA at 100 yds (supported). The Federal 62gr JSP (556SBCT) is in the 1.5 - 2.0 MOA range, but I have read that...while it's a devastating barrier-blind round, it just won't produce a tight pattern at ranges >100 yds.

Next weekend I'll get out to a 200yd range with it and see what it does. I have a box of IMI 68gr GDHP's inbound, just to see what they will do at that range.

So...AR #1 (Patrol/HD): 55gr TAP and 62gr JSP's. AR#2 (AT&T - "reach out and touch someone."): 55gr FMJ and 62gr JSP's. Until I can try out the 68gr IMI's.

Happy where I am. But I have got-to-find-a-bipod for AR #2. At 9X, my sight picture looks like I'm writing my name in the snow...ha. Looks like the Bravo keymod hand guard is in the future.

Thanks for all the help.
Click to expand...

A bipod is nice to have but it won't fix your problem. Combined with a free float hand guard, it might help your accuracy some though.

You don't need to spend money. You need time behind the gun. Use your back pack for a front rest. Make sure it's under the hand guard and not the barrel. Use a "sand sock" for rear support.

Your reticle is most likely dancing from muscling the rifle onto target instead of getting into proper position. Work on building your position using your natural point of aim. Breathing also could be an issue.

If you want me to go into further detail I will.
 
#6,616
#6,616
GreyWolf1129 said:
I'll post the details later, but I finally got to shoot AR #2 today, albeit at 100 yds. Took a while to dial it in, and learn the nuances of the SpotOn app, but the end result is that with the 55gr FMJ's, I am grouping right at 1MOA at 100 yds (supported). The Federal 62gr JSP (556SBCT) is in the 1.5 - 2.0 MOA range, but I have read that...while it's a devastating barrier-blind round, it just won't produce a tight pattern at ranges >100 yds.

Next weekend I'll get out to a 200yd range with it and see what it does. I have a box of IMI 68gr GDHP's inbound, just to see what they will do at that range.

So...AR #1 (Patrol/HD): 55gr TAP and 62gr JSP's. AR#2 (AT&T - "reach out and touch someone."): 55gr FMJ and 62gr JSP's. Until I can try out the 68gr IMI's.

Happy where I am. But I have got-to-find-a-bipod for AR #2. At 9X, my sight picture looks like I'm writing my name in the snow...ha. Looks like the Bravo keymod hand guard is in the future.

Thanks for all the help.
Click to expand...


When I'm doing my damndest to take as much of me out of the equation in shooting tiny groups (handload development for instance) I try to get set up where the rifle is sitting on target first. By this I mean I'll have it set up where just sitting there by itself without me touching it (or just barely supporting) and peeking through the optic I'm on target. Then I just sort of ooze in around it getting into a firing position. If I do it right the only thing that needs doing to get on target would be the tiniest of wiggles and a bit of sand sock manipulation.



If you're having trouble staying on target either the rifle's support is fighting where you're trying to aim or your body position is somehow doing so.
 
#6,617
#6,617
I have noticed these indoor ranges popping up everywhere.. Why is that? Must be good money in it or no place to shoot
 
#6,619
#6,619
txbo said:
A bipod is nice to have but it won't fix your problem. Combined with a free float hand guard, it might help your accuracy some though.

You don't need to spend money. You need time behind the gun. Use your back pack for a front rest. Make sure it's under the hand guard and not the barrel. Use a "sand sock" for rear support.

Your reticle is most likely dancing from muscling the rifle onto target instead of getting into proper position. Work on building your position using your natural point of aim. Breathing also could be an issue.

If you want me to go into further detail I will.
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txbo, DTH, hndog, GV:

Thanks for the advice. I misspoke. What I meant was that I need / wanted a benchrest so I could do a decent evaluation of the most accurate round out of my rifle at ranges of 100 yds +. I was thinking "bipod" because I shoot off of a table at my friends' place, then realized that the best way to dial in the scope and dope the ammo is by use of a benchrest. That will tell me what I really need to know, and then we can work on shooter error once I know the most accurate load for me.

So I ordered a decent one, and it will be here this week. I'll use that to dial in the scope on whichever round turns out to be the most accurate at longer ranges. I'll shoot the 55gr FMJ; 62gr FMJ (just for kicks); 62gr Federal JSP; and the IMI 69gr Sierra MatchKings (sorry, that's what I ordered a box of). Using the bench will tell me the best round. We can work on my mastery of the gun later.

Plus, I'm going from an SSA on AR #1 to a standard Colt trigger on AR #2. An SSA for #2 is likely my next purchase. Love that trigger.

So, thanks for all the help / advice. I'm on it.
 
#6,622
#6,622
hndog609 said:
If you're having trouble staying on target either the rifle's support is fighting where you're trying to aim or your body position is somehow doing so.
Click to expand...

:good!: This is the bottom line.....and lack of breathing control will magnify it.
 
#6,624
#6,624
GreyWolf1129 said:
Yeah, I might be "old school", but I'm a deep breath...slow exhale...find the right point to stop....and squeeze type.

Am I close?
Click to expand...

There is a natural respiratory pause after you exhale naturally where your chest is not expanding or contracting. That is the best place to fire. Sit and pay attention to it for a minute. Whatever you do, do not hold your breath. It robs the eyes of oxygen.
 
#6,625
#6,625
On another note...I really need to stay out of the PF. The dumbassery displayed by some posters over there has gone from "entertaining" to "there's no way that sperm cell was the fastest swimmer".

Seriously.
 
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