The Official 2nd Amendment Appreciation Thread

She doesn't keep them in her purse. They might get lost in the small change at the bottom. Someone with your education should know that any true sophisticate keeps their jewels in a safe, so there...

:)

I liked your dancing fleas comment better.

Besides, all men know a woman's purse is a "no-go" zone. It's like the Spartan's pit of doom, once something gets lost in there, it's likely never to be found.
 
I liked your dancing fleas comment better.

Besides, all men know a woman's purse is a "no-go" zone. It's like the Spartan's pit of doom, once something gets lost in there, it's likely never to be found.

Sorry, woke up this morning and decided to take the shot at me instead of you. I'm ill-equipped for a battle of wits this morning. Or maybe ever, with you.

Have a good day, GV.

Go Vols.
 
Alright, GV...did some research on the stopping power / wound tracks on 5.56, and found a very interesting piece written by an Army surgeon who also happens (so he says) to be a bit of a gun nut. Long story short is he wasn't impressed by 5.56 wounds he saw in actual combat, until he ran into Chris Kyle, who told him "you don't hate the caliber, you hate the round", i.e. - NATO 55-62 grain rounds. Supposedly Kyle told him that 62 gr or heavier soft points were deadly at any range.

Still with me?

Great article, and it got me to thinking. If I ever have to use my AR, I need it to stop whatever the threat is, even if it means going through a barrier (wall, door, car door, etc.). So after reading that, and then consulting with some of our in-house firearms guys, I just ordered a case of Federal TRU Tactical 64 grain soft points. I ordered enough to allow me to make sure my zero is still good, and then be able to stuff (10) 30-round mags.

Yes, I know...Tackleberry...but I go out the door ready for a prolonged gunfight. If it ever comes, no way to go home and get more, right?

You have any info, experience, or thoughts on the topic?
 
Just got back from a full day at the range. Finally got to feel that Geisele trigger (AR), and get some quality time with the new Springfield 1911 Range Officer.

- I'm probably an average shot, but with the Aimpoint PRO and that trigger, you could cover my final 5 dial-in rounds with a quarter. Then I ran through a full mag (30 rounds) just as quick as I could get the dot on target, and there's a big hole just left of "zero" with a few holes just outside of it.

- Definitely going to have to get a lighter trigger for the Glock. Everything low and left in rapid fire, which is shooter error (anticipation), but it's a lingering issue. The lighter trigger should help.

- The RIA compact .45 is as solid and reliable a gun as you can get for $400. And there's no way that's a 4-6 lb. trigger, at least not in mine.

- And the Springfield 1911 .45 is without a doubt the best-shooting, smoothest, most accurate .45 I have ever shot. That gun will give you a big ego.

- After running over 300 rounds of .45 through 3 guns, my right hand is measuring every heartbeat, but it was a great day, and long overdue. Polished up the perishable skills; worked out a couple of kinks in my sight alignment; and decided to find a lighter trigger for the Glock.

I had forgotten how therapeutic punching holes in paper could be. I needed that.

Go Vols.
 
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Alright, GV...did some research on the stopping power / wound tracks on 5.56, and found a very interesting piece written by an Army surgeon who also happens (so he says) to be a bit of a gun nut. Long story short is he wasn't impressed by 5.56 wounds he saw in actual combat, until he ran into Chris Kyle, who told him "you don't hate the caliber, you hate the round", i.e. - NATO 55-62 grain rounds. Supposedly Kyle told him that 62 gr or heavier soft points were deadly at any range.

Still with me?

Great article, and it got me to thinking. If I ever have to use my AR, I need it to stop whatever the threat is, even if it means going through a barrier (wall, door, car door, etc.). So after reading that, and then consulting with some of our in-house firearms guys, I just ordered a case of Federal TRU Tactical 64 grain soft points. I ordered enough to allow me to make sure my zero is still good, and then be able to stuff (10) 30-round mags.

Yes, I know...Tackleberry...but I go out the door ready for a prolonged gunfight. If it ever comes, no way to go home and get more, right?

You have any info, experience, or thoughts on the topic?

Okay, you have to remember military rounds have to conform to the Hague Convention, i.e. no bullets that deform on impact. And basically, the M855 rounds, the "standard" so to speak, also were designed for Combloc body armor being issued when it was developed. And most rifles in that time were being issued with 20 inch barrels. Basically, the 5.56 military rounds tend to tumble or fragment, which greatly depends on speed. The slower they go, the less chance of fragmenting. It has less to do with grain weight and more to do with the design. Which is why, believe it or not, the older M193 produces a better wound track than the "newer" M855. It was designed to yaw and fragment rather than punch body armor.

As for the newest and greatest M855A1, I can't tell you. What I can tell you it operates way above the normal pressures of conventional rounds. Allegedly, it's a bit more lethal.

Now, the key factor in this for you is you are not limited by the Hague Convention and unless you have some departmental policy prohibiting it, there are plenty of rounds out there that do great in penetration and wound channels. DocGKR has done some pretty extensive testing on his own dime and came up with this:

5.56 mm Duty Loads

He also has followed in the footsteps of Dr Martin Fackler, pretty much the granddaddy of modern ballistics.

Now, sad to say where you went wrong but you went wrong by getting the .223 spec ammo instead of the 5.56 spec. It does make a different in velocity and penetration. I'm not saying the .223 won't work. But you have to remember, they are loaded "lighter" than 5.56 spec stuff. You have a 5.56 chamber, use it. The TRU stuff will work, but you also have accuracy issues that many have reported. Accuracy is certainly something an LEO needs to be concerned about when engaging a target.

If you were to go with a 5.56 pressure bonded soft point, like the Federal XM556FBIT3 or Winchester RA556B, you shouldn't have a care in the world. They have been extensively tested by the FBI and even more in the private sector. Provided, they are way too expensive to be popping off as training ammo, but by and large, your "go to" duty loads would not be lacking with say, seven mags of said ammo. If you need more than seven mags in any fight you are likely to encounter, you're not doing much aiming and just blasting off your ammo.
 
One other thing, GW, don't buy into the hype of folks who put on YouTube productions of "gel tests." Many times, they are not conforming to testing protocols and "backyard" testing can lead to skewed results.

I like what TNoutdoors9 brings to the table, but even he admits he isn't a "professional" in the strictest sense. However, he tries to replicate as best as possible what the professionals use. He's a good ole boy having fun shooting up stuff in his backyard and educating as he goes along. His tests are generally better and more objective than most and tend to confirm what the professionals say. One feather in his cap is the fact he tends to test things most ballistic labs won't like the "latest and greatest kill all round!" out on the market. The G2 RIP for example. I'd trust his reviews more than other "backyard" testers since he has no fear of calling a spade a spade. A lot of professional labs can't put out what their findings are since they are sometimes bound by confidentiality agreements with their findings. Which is why folks like DocGKR and TNoutdoors9 can say "yes, your LeHigh ammo sucks" or calling out Lemas Ammo as FOS in the case of DocGKR.

Anyway, be wary of manufacturers and "backyard" testing.
 
And dang it, one more thing, GW!

Your "emergency action" load of 10 mags. I say 7 because that's one in the rifle, six spares. Good mags like Magpul, Lancer L5AWM or D&H, Brownells or NHMTG (with Magpul followers if you prefer aluminum).

I've had decent luck with the E-Lander mags once they figured out the proper dimensions. Early versions are suspect though. ASC 5.56 mags are supposed to be good as well.

I would not suggest the Troy Battlemag. Just a personal preference here since if I can bend a mag with my bare hands and without much force, I just hesitate on its longevity. Personal preference though.

Stay away from anything Pro Mag, Thermold and Tapco. I'd avoid any "new" polymer mag on the market as a duty mag until it's thoroughly tested.

You need 14 total. 7 for your gear, 7 to rotate. Test each one individually with at least one full load (more is better) in your rifle (more paper punching time) before calling it good. Rotate your mags every three months or so. Once one goes bad and doesn't feed correctly, trash it. Don't hesitate, just garbage time.

You shouldn't "need" more than 210 rounds in any fight you can realistically expect to encounter. If it's going on that long, you just aren't aiming.
 
Alright, GV...did some research on the stopping power / wound tracks on 5.56, and found a very interesting piece written by an Army surgeon who also happens (so he says) to be a bit of a gun nut. Long story short is he wasn't impressed by 5.56 wounds he saw in actual combat, until he ran into Chris Kyle, who told him "you don't hate the caliber, you hate the round", i.e. - NATO 55-62 grain rounds. Supposedly Kyle told him that 62 gr or heavier soft points were deadly at any range.

Still with me?

Great article, and it got me to thinking. If I ever have to use my AR, I need it to stop whatever the threat is, even if it means going through a barrier (wall, door, car door, etc.). So after reading that, and then consulting with some of our in-house firearms guys, I just ordered a case of Federal TRU Tactical 64 grain soft points. I ordered enough to allow me to make sure my zero is still good, and then be able to stuff (10) 30-round mags.

Yes, I know...Tackleberry...but I go out the door ready for a prolonged gunfight. If it ever comes, no way to go home and get more, right?

You have any info, experience, or thoughts on the topic?

In addition to GV's (per usual) erudite advice I'd add that many rounds otherwise specifically intended for big game (not varmints) are very good. In particular I'd suggest bonded (Bear Claw) or monolithic (TSX or GMX). These "hunting" rounds can be found on sale more often than those branded for tactical/LEO.

Another difference which you may or may not consider worth the cost is some of the dedicated tactical ammo will offer things like low flash powders and sealed primers. If you really wanted to you can seal the primers on any round yourself.
 
In addition to GV's (per usual) erudite advice I'd add that many rounds otherwise specifically intended for big game (not varmints) are very good. In particular I'd suggest bonded (Bear Claw) or monolithic (TSX or GMX). These "hunting" rounds can be found on sale more often than those branded for tactical/LEO.

Another difference which you may or may not consider worth the cost is some of the dedicated tactical ammo will offer things like low flash powders and sealed primers. If you really wanted to you can seal the primers on any round yourself.

The Federal load I mentioned does have the Bearclaw. Just FYI.

And both the Winchester and Federal offer sealed primers. :)
 
The Federal load I mentioned does have the Bearclaw. Just FYI.

And both the Winchester and Federal offer sealed primers. :)

Thanks to all...and you GV...for all the advice.

GV: If you recall, I have consulted with you from the very moment I pulled the A3 handle off my Colt and started upgrading it. So...Aimpoint PRO; Magpul BUS (co-witnessed); Magpul 2-point sling; Magpul mags (30's); and the Geisele trigger. Simply put, it ain't the same gun. It's better, and it was really good to start.

I have my old EST vest which I carry when I work now, so yes, one mag in the well and six spares.

I'm stuck with the 64 gr soft points until (a) I can afford the ammo you suggested, and (b) I shoot these guys up. And yes, the TRU ammo is .223, with low flash powder and sealed primers. I do still have a couple of thousand rounds, give or take, of 55 gr and 62 gr NATO (Lake City) ammo, so...I have options. And a few boxes of TAP laying around.

One more thing. I noticed that when I switched back and forth between 55 gr and 62 gr rounds yesterday, I got a (very) slightly different "pattern zero". Is that common, or was it maybe just from the barrel (HBAR) finally heating up?

Okay... I found the XM556SBCT3 for $73.00 / 100 at Bone Frog Gun Club. Same as the FBIT3, or so it says. Is this what you recommend?

So...another $220 or so to get the right ammo.

And you knuckleheads wonder why I'm always on probation at the 42.....

Go Vols.
 
I'm stuck with the 64 gr soft points until (a) I can afford the ammo you suggested, and (b) I shoot these guys up. And yes, the TRU ammo is .223, with low flash powder and sealed primers. I do still have a couple of thousand rounds, give or take, of 55 gr and 62 gr NATO (Lake City) ammo, so...I have options. And a few boxes of TAP laying around.

I hope it didn't come across as me saying that ammo was inferior. It's perfectly acceptable as a duty load and should be perfectly fine for most situations you encounter. I was just saying there is better out there especially since you have the platform that can take advantage of the higher pressure loads.

One more thing. I noticed that when I switched back and forth between 55 gr and 62 gr rounds yesterday, I got a (very) slightly different "pattern zero". Is that common, or was it maybe just from the barrel (HBAR) finally heating up?

You will see a slight shift in POA/POI when switching between the grain weights as well as the barrel heating up. It shouldn't be as pronounced except at longer ranges and extended periods of high volume firing. For training purposes, you shouldn't be able to notice a huge difference, but make sure you check zero with your carry load when you're done training.

Okay... I found the XM556SBCT3 for $73.00 / 100 at Bone Frog Gun Club. Same as the FBIT3, or so it says. Is this what you recommend?

So...another $220 or so to get the right ammo.

And you knuckleheads wonder why I'm always on probation at the 42.....

Go Vols.

Honestly, I'd go with this:

20 rds - 5.56mm Bonded Winchester Ranger 64GR JSP Ammo RA556B | SGAmmo.com

The reason I say this is it is the FBI load. Basically, if you are part of an OIS, it's hard for a lawyer to go after you for using ammo which could be questionable so to speak. Basically, it's a bullet proof (excuse the pun) way of taking that line of questioning out of the picture. "Why use such ammo?" "Because the FBI uses it."

Anyway, buy two boxes to start. Fire a mag of your carry ammo to check your zero, replace it with a box and a half. Next time, a month or two down the road, buy another box and you have two mags. So on and so forth until you have your mags replaced. Just don't mix the ammo in the mags.

Should keep you out of trouble with the better half if you do it incrementally instead of one big purchase. And I'd wait a bit anyway lol
 
Good advice, and I'm going to take it. Fact is, the Winchester Ranger was one of the most popular rounds I found in my search...maybe price and that article I read tipped me towards the Federal round. I'm a big fan of Federal (never had a FTF), but Federal / Winchester / Hornady...like you said, you can't really go wrong.

And the "OIS defense" issue is large in my mind. I'm a member of SSPBA, and they are very good at what they do, but whether it be an OIS, or a home defense "OIS", the lawsuit is imminent. Might as well have that point in my favor.

So what I'll do is load the 64 gr Federal when it comes in. Best I got right now. Then I'll buy a couple of boxes of the Ranger ammo each month...shoot the first one one to set my zero...then add three boxes (2 mags) each month until I'm swapped out. I'll donate the remaining Federal 64 gr rounds to my S.O. for training. I know the patrol deputies are carrying plain old 55 gr solids, which I never liked for anything more than target practice. I'm not on the EST anymore, but those guys are carrying the Colt 10.5" F/A carbines, with optional suppressors.

On a side note, I miss the days when we had the suppressed H&K MP5N's. The action made more noise than the shot, and those things were great in close quarters, and very accurate.

So...good advice, and I'll take it. As much as I enjoy pulling your chain from time to time (and I do, and I will), I value your advice, and you have yet to send me down the wrong path. Like I tell some of the young bucks, I don't know everything, but I usually know somebody who does.

You keep safe out there. If you ever make it to Southeast Georgia, or we end up in Knoxville at the same time, your dinner...libations included...is on me.

I'll just tell the wife we went to high school together. Remember, Pig Latin.

:salute:

Go Vols.
 
Hey guys. I work for Winchester's parent company so I buy it exclusively, I have, however been gazing at the IMI 9mm HP rounds on SG Ammo. Any experience with them? Thinking about stocking up on some bad guy rounds for my Glock 26.

Thanks
 
Hey guys. I work for Winchester's parent company so I buy it exclusively, I have, however been gazing at the IMI 9mm HP rounds on SG Ammo. Any experience with them? Thinking about stocking up on some bad guy rounds for my Glock 26.

Thanks

IMI produced ammo generally tends to be good to go, but I have seen a few reports of some hard primers from a few years ago. I think it greatly depends on the platform you're shooting it from though as reviews were mixed.

However, at $16 a box, it certainly can't hurt to grab a few and give it a whirl in your platform of choice to try it out. I'd say 100 rounds ought to give you a good sample of whether or not it'll be consistent as an SD ammo choice.
 
Went out to the Guns and Leather in Greenbriar with my dad and granddad yesterday. Since last year, my dad got the gun fever and has a nice collection. My favorites are his Sig 1911 and Colt .44 Mag. I wish I could afford to collect like he does lol. What a blast! (DAD PUN!!!!)

I should have gotten a better pic. That's my Glock 23, and the one on the right is some kind of .22 target pistol.
 

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I’m needing recommendations for a compact pistol for concealed carry.

This is for a woman.

Only requirement she has is that it’s pink. Lol

I’m looking for recommendations on caliber and realibilty.

Thank you
 
GV should chime in here shortly. Listen to what he says.

For my part, forget the color. "Pink" never saved a life. Pick the right gun.

My wife carries the S&W M+P .38 Bodyguard. Comes with an integral Crimson Trace laser. That gun is for point-blank self defense. All she has to do is put the dot where she wants the round to go, and squeeze. Drawback: like any DA revolver, it has a long trigger pull.

I can make the argument for a single stack 9mm, but one advantage of the wheel gun is that if you have a FTF, you just pull the trigger again. To each their own.

But you (and she) absolutely need to make "color" the last item on your priority list.

All my guns are ugly. I bought them, and built them, for an ugly fight.
 
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GV should chime in here shortly. Listen to what he says.

What Obsessed really wanted to say:

My hand size would even make a ten year old girl blush with shame, hence I will be coy in asking about a pistol for a "woman."

Only requirement is that it’s pink in order for it to match my jean color.

I’m looking for recommendations on caliber and realibilty.

Thank you

You're welcome.
 
I’m needing recommendations for a compact pistol for concealed carry.

This is for a woman.

Only requirement she has is that it’s pink. Lol

I’m looking for recommendations on caliber and realibilty.

Thank you

I'd never suggest anything less than a 9mm in any pistol.

Personal preference is a Kahr P9 or a little cheaper alternative of the CW9. Same pistol dimensions more or less, but the P9 has a few more bells and whistles like a polygonal barrel and night sights. To me, it's perfectly sized for a woman's hands and conceals easily. Also very easy to shoot once you get past that DAO trigger.

But...

The DAO trigger is nice because it's only going to go bang when you really want it to.

Budget, but only has one mag:

Kahr Arms CW9093 CW9 7+1 9mm 3.6\" $342.00

Nice:

Kahr Arms KP9093A P9 7+1 9mm 3.5" $499.00

Premium content:

Kahr Arms KP9093N P9 7+1 9mm 3.6" $735.00

I'd also suggest a Smith and Wesson Shield in 9mm.

S&W M&P9 Shield 7+1/8+1 9mm 3.1" $373.00

As for the pink. That's what Cerakote is for my friend. They have any shade of pink imaginable and can do all or some.

And ammo:

25 round box - 9mm Luger Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain Hollow point Ammo - 90250 | SGAmmo.com

Avoid +P ammo.

If you go with the CW9, here's the spare mag:

https://www.topgunsupply.com/kahr-k9-9mm-7rd-magazine-all-9mm-models-except-t9.html
 
GV should chime in here shortly. Listen to what he says.

For my part, forget the color. "Pink" never saved a life. Pick the right gun.

My wife carries the S&W M+P .38 Bodyguard. Comes with an integral Crimson Trace laser. That gun is for point-blank self defense. All she has to do is put the dot where she wants the round to go, and squeeze. Drawback: like any DA revolver, it has a long trigger pull.

I can make the argument for a single stack 9mm, but one advantage of the wheel gun is that if you have a FTF, you just pull the trigger again. To each their own.

But you (and she) absolutely need to make "color" the last item on your priority list.

All my guns are ugly. I bought them, and built them, for an ugly fight.

I agree with everything you have stated. But if she wants pink, I see no reason why a quality weapon isn’t available.
 
I'd never suggest anything less than a 9mm in any pistol.

Personal preference is a Kahr P9 or a little cheaper alternative of the CW9. Same pistol dimensions more or less, but the P9 has a few more bells and whistles like a polygonal barrel and night sights. To me, it's perfectly sized for a woman's hands and conceals easily. Also very easy to shoot once you get past that DAO trigger.

But...

The DAO trigger is nice because it's only going to go bang when you really want it to.

Budget, but only has one mag:

Kahr Arms CW9093 CW9 7+1 9mm 3.6\" $342.00

Nice:

Kahr Arms KP9093A P9 7+1 9mm 3.5" $499.00

Premium content:

Kahr Arms KP9093N P9 7+1 9mm 3.6" $735.00

I'd also suggest a Smith and Wesson Shield in 9mm.

S&W M&P9 Shield 7+1/8+1 9mm 3.1" $373.00

As for the pink. That's what Cerakote is for my friend. They have any shade of pink imaginable and can do all or some.

And ammo:

25 round box - 9mm Luger Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain Hollow point Ammo - 90250 | SGAmmo.com

Avoid +P ammo.

If you go with the CW9, here's the spare mag:

https://www.topgunsupply.com/kahr-k9-9mm-7rd-magazine-all-9mm-models-except-t9.html

Thanks GV.

I’ll look in to these. I know a lot of folks go with the 380 but to me, like you, it’s too small of a round.
 
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