The Minimum Wage: What's the Big Deal?

#653
#653
#654
#654
Orange_Crush said:
...
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What qualifiers? I don't understand the question. Is he still talking about the chicken strip analogy?

It's an analogy, I can put hundreds of different qualifiers in. Is there a specific question? You sure as he11 seem to think so.

Are you obsessive compulsive?
 
#655
#655
Orange_Crush said:
The question he bumped once and I've bumped twice. Once conversations reach a certain tipping point with you, you invariably seem to lose interest in them.
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You on the other hand seem to never lose interest.

I can tell when the horse is dead and know that further beating will just tire me out.
 
#656
#656
luthervol said:
It's a philosophical position.

1. Wealth is power, power is wealth. Replace wealth distribution with power distribution.

2. Wealth, poverty, social standing, are all largely states of mind. It's a comparative position. Wealth in one society may classify as poverty in another. Would you rather be the wealthy man or the one in poverty? The one in poverty may have more "things" but which do you think has the higher satisfaction with life?
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Which type of power are you referring to?
 
#657
#657
luthervol said:
What qualifiers? I don't understand the question. Is he still talking about the chicken strip analogy?

It's an analogy, I can put hundreds of different qualifiers in. Is there a specific question? You sure as he11 seem to think so.

Are you obsessive compulsive?
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No; I am not.

luthervol said:
You on the other hand seem to never lose interest.

I can tell when the horse is dead and know that further beating will just tire me out.
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I merely noticed that you didn't consider the subject a dead horse when discussing it with others. However, PKT asked some valid questions and wanted to carry your analogy out to its natural conclusion(s) per your levels of greed in a global context.

You weren't keen on that discussion, apparently.

So, don't ask me the questions. Talk to PKT, who had expressed an interest in dialog. If you have no interest in that dialog, or if you're afraid of where that dialog may lead, then just tell him.
 
#658
#658
luthervol said:
Are you obsessive compulsive?
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And for the record, claiming that I'm 'stalking you', or gas-lighting me for interacting with you, makes you look small and afraid.

If you are afraid to interact with me, just say so now and I will never respond to you again. Otherwise, stop stooping to such. Deal?
 
#660
#660
luthervol said:
The ability to control and dictate.
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To the extent you are talking about political power, I agree with you. Ironically the way to ensure that political power can't be bought and sold is to make the government much smaller and have it take in and spend less money, but I'm assuming you're not in favor of that. That is another irony of the left - people like Bernie Sanders want to give government, this institution they think is corruptly owned and controlled by millionaires and billionaires, more power and authority and that will make things more "fair."

To the extent you are talking about economic power (e.g., a wealthy person is able to buy a tract of land, subdivide it, form a community out of it, and that makes his own land more valuable), I don't see a problem with that.
 
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#661
#661
Orange_Crush said:
No; I am not.



I merely noticed that you didn't consider the subject a dead horse when discussing it with others. However, PKT asked some valid questions and wanted to carry your analogy out to its natural conclusion(s) per your levels of greed in a global context.

You weren't keen on that discussion, apparently.

So, don't ask me the questions. Talk to PKT, who had expressed an interest in dialog. If you have no interest in that dialog, or if you're afraid of where that dialog may lead, then just tell him.
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I love discussion as long as I am getting some enjoyment from it, and/or I feel it is productive. If discussion is no longer enjoyable, or at least productive in my eyes, then I'm out. Interpret that however you wish.

Also, at times I have to be away from the discussion for hours and many times when I'm able to get back to the board the discussion has evolved to another topic, died a painless death on its own, or I forget all about it.

Your post frequently come across to me as less about discussion and more as a condescending attempt to win some non existent argument. But by all means, continue to respond and try to portray me as the envious, hypocritical, discussion avoiding, poster that you see me as. I picked the word "myopia" for a reason.
 
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#662
#662
hog88 said:
If you took all the money in the world and divided it up equally, within 2 years 90% the rich people you took the money from will be rich again and 90% of the poor will be poor again.
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Excellent study done on WWII POW camps that determined this exact same thing. Every soldier got the same Red Cross packages, so everyone had equal income. But vast markets were created bartering goods (you like chocolate more than coffee, you prefer French cigarettes to British, etc.). Some made fortunes, some were broke.
 
#663
#663
luthervol said:
I love discussion as long as I am getting some enjoyment from it, and/or I feel it is productive. If discussion is no longer enjoyable, or at least productive in my eyes, then I'm out. Interpret that however you wish.

Also, at times I have to be away from the discussion for hours and many times when I'm able to get back to the board the discussion has evolved to another topic, died a painless death on its own, or I forget all about it.

Your post frequently come across to me as less about discussion and more as a condescending attempt to win some non existent argument. But by all means, continue to respond and try to portray me as the envious, hypocritical, discussion avoiding, poster that you see me as. I picked the word "myopia" for a reason.
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I'm a libertarian. You're a socialist who is proposing wealth redistribution. You're surprised I would point out the hypocrisy in your (1) claims that greed and envy are irredeemable attributes, while (2) proposing the beauty of wealth redistribution?

lol

Now... just to remind you that the discussion had neither evolved, not died during your "absence":

PKT_VOL said:
You would have to explain the qualifiers. Keep in mind, we can switch out different parts of your analogy which would probably lead to different conclusions.
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He's asking the questions now. I will be interested in how you actually show that wanting other people's stuff is neither greed, nor envy. And since he's the one inviting the discussion, you won't even have to deal with me.

It sounds like the perfect platform for you.
 
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#665
#665
Orange_Crush said:
I'm a libertarian. You're a socialist who is proposing wealth redistribution. You're surprised I would point out the hypocrisy in your (1) claims that greed and envy are irredeemable attributes, while (2) proposing the beauty of wealth redistribution?

lol

Now... just to remind you that the discussion had neither evolved, not died during your "absence":



He's asking the questions now. I will be interested in how you actually show that wanting other people's stuff is neither greed, nor envy. And since he's the one inviting the discussion, you won't even have to deal with me.

It sounds like the perfect platform for you.
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#666
#666
I would point out that many of the material items you have is due to a billionaire. I have a job, car, tv, cellphone, computer,etc thanks to billionaires. The government seeks to make it more difficult to acquire these things.
 
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#667
#667
midnight orange said:
I would point out that many of the material items you have is due to a billionaire. I have a job, car, tv, cellphone, computer,etc thanks to billionaires. The government seeks to make it more difficult to acquire these things.
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I don't think any of those things, with the possible exception of your job, were created by a billionaire. They became billionaires after the fact. I cant't think of many major inventions by billionaires (or even millionaires). They were often created in a garage or a basement by a working class stiff. We would have all of those things regardless of rather or not the inventor got 5 million, 50 million, 5 billion, or 50 billion dollars.
 
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#668
#668
luthervol said:
I don't think any of those things, with the possible exception of your job, were created by a billionaire. They became billionaires after the fact. I cant't think of many major inventions by billionaires (or even millionaires).
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It doesn't matter when they became billionaires. The fact remains these are the people who you can thank for most of the material things you have.



luthervol said:
They were often created in a garage or a basement by a working class stiff. We would have all of those things regardless of rather or not the inventor got 5 million, 50 million, 5 billion, or 50 billion dollars.
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No, we would not. These things don't just magically appear. Why do these inventions never come from south America, Africa, or areas of Asia?
 
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#669
#669
midnight orange said:
It doesn't matter when they became billionaires. The fact remains these are the people who you can thank for most of the material things you have. No, we would not. These things don't just magically appear.
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Them becoming billionaires after the fact has nothing to do with it. Many of the inventions/improvements were by employees that never profited from there own work.
 
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#671
#671
midnight orange said:
It doesn't matter when they became billionaires. The fact remains these are the people who you can thank for most of the material things you have.





No, we would not. These things don't just magically appear. Why do these inventions never come from south America, Africa, or areas of Asia?
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The financial incentive that capitalism provides is the impetus that allows for innovation and invention. The prospect of getting paid drives many people. I am all for keeping that impetus, but I think that the men and women who run businesses have begun to overvalue their own contributions. They are taking a larger portion of the pie than ever before. They are leaving less than ever for the regular employees. That phenomenon needs to change.

I don't like forced wealth redistribution. I am not in favor of welfare as a way of life, but I think that many in the lower middle class are losing confidence in the attainability of the American Dream. The question is, how do you motivate corporations to take better care of their employees. Creative incentives done via the tax code is the only way I can think of.
 
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#673
#673
ClearwaterVol said:
The financial incentive that capitalism provides is the impetus that allows for innovation and invention. The prospect of getting paid drives many people. I am all for keeping that impetus, but I think that the men and women who run businesses have begun to overvalue their own contributions. They are taking a larger portion of the pie than ever before. They are leaving less than ever for the regular employees. That phenomenon needs to change.

I don't like forced wealth redistribution. I am not in favor of welfare as a way of life, but I think that many in the lower middle class are losing confidence in the attainability of the American Dream. The question is, how do you motivate corporations to take better care of their employees. Creative incentives done via the tax code is the only way I can think of.
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Clearwater can make my points much clearer than I can make them myself. I'll go on record saying I'm in agreement with Clearwater 92% of the time.

That doesn't mean he's in agreement with me!!!!!
 
#674
#674
ClearwaterVol said:
The financial incentive that capitalism provides is the impetus that allows for innovation and invention. The prospect of getting paid drives many people. I am all for keeping that impetus, but I think that the men and women who run businesses have begun to overvalue their own contributions. They are taking a larger portion of the pie than ever before. They are leaving less than ever for the regular employees. That phenomenon needs to change.
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I agree that this is happening (the bold) but it's a two way street. I see more and more employees who could give two ****s about the company and actively avoid doing anything above what they are required to do.

A few years ago I had to suspend bonuses for a couple quarters, lost some accounts and it was either that or lay people off. I even differed my own pay for a couple months. Hardly a damn one was appreciative for not being laid off or having insurance or other benefits cut they just constantly *****ed and griped about the bonuses. If that situation ever comes up again, there will be people going out the door and I'll keep mine.
 
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