The Kim Caldwell System

[volbeast33]

This comment pre-supposes that it is a “good” system and, therefore, when it doesn’t yield desired outcomes it must be the fault of one or more system implementers. That ignores the opponents’ role in …playing the game!

Not really. It was obvious there were issues inside that locker room. We will find out more this year. The offensive philosophy is built on sound fundamentals. The test is whether her pressure defense will work well enough at this level.

 

[volfan102455]

my apologies. apparently, I’ve been living in the matrix. I had no clue that there was any question whether Caldwell had said those things and they were a basis for her system..

Also, while caught up in the matrix I could’ve sworn you said you suspected she knew no other way to coach, nor that she knew how to coach players at this level.

I need to go off and work on my confirmation bias, which is clearly out of control.

But, am I the only one who heard these things?

No she did indeed say those things.

 

[volfan102455]

And the commentators during the games have alluded to them as well - many times.

 

[RetroVol]

No she did indeed say those things.

I'm open to learning I'm wrong. But where did she say "players have to forget everything they know and relearn everything"? Or that her family hated her at Thanksgiving? Ot that effort is the only thing that matters in her system? If she said those things, I need to readjust my thinking. If she didn't, then I can continue to consider that what we saw this year might have multiple causes and that, in looking forward to next year, there are a number of things to be considered.

 

[SummittSoul]

When you say there were multiple players who were very smart, instead of saying every player was very smart, you’re saying there were multiple people who were not. So if you think that’s meant to insult, then that’s what you’re doing.

Conditioning is not intelligence. You won’t ever turn Vince Young into Peyton Manning, no matter how many times you beat your head against the wall. You don’t need Vince Carter’s athleticism to get Larry Bird’s production either. You’re just saying that if you hammer a square peg hard enough, it will eventually fit into a round hole.. That sounds terribly inefficient to me.

You can't turn this into something I said, because I would never say something remotely like what you did about these players' intelligence, IQ etc. It' s not true, period. It's actually perfect that you picked Vince Carter and Vince Young VS Peyton Manning and Larry Bird. SMH.

I said multiple players were "VERY" smart. Yes I was referencing specific people. But, what I didn't say is that the others weren't smart or there were none on the squad or that there was something generally off with our players IQs. The statements aren't mutually exclusive, nor are athleticism and intellect. Don't assume things about what I meant. I say what I mean. You said what you said and it was a problematic and untrue statement.

 

[adam.vol]

You can't turn this into something I said, because I would never insult people's intelligence, IQ etc in this way.

Well, you turned it into that and you did. I don’t feel I’m insulting someone by calling them not intelligent enough, not tall enough, or not athletic enough. We have the traits that we have.

 

[SummittSoul]

Well, you turned it into that and you did. I don’t feel I’m insulting someone by calling them not intelligent enough, not tall enough, or not athletic enough. We have the traits that we have.

Feelings aren't facts.

Neuroplasticity is a fact. At some point, height is fixed. It isn't the same. Nor can you assess someone's IQ by how they perform in a system they are learning that requires deconstructing a lifetime of conditioning.

 

[adam.vol]

Feelings aren't facts.

I agree, but we’re playing a very deep bench and it only takes one missed assignment to give up points in basketball.

Caldwell described her play philosophy as trying to play the entire ball game the same way that a team plays the final two minutes from behind. You can’t operate at break neck speed unless you can make decisions at the speed of a fighter pilot. I wasn’t talking about someone ability to learn advanced physics. I’m talking about processing speed in a stressful environment.

 

[SummittSoul]

I agree, but we’re playing a very deep bench and it only takes one missed assignment to give up points in basketball.

Caldwell described her play philosophy as trying to play the entire ball game the same way that a team plays the final two minutes from behind. You can’t operate at break neck speed unless you can make decisions at the speed of a fighter pilot.

I agree with you there. While related, the speed at which you make decisions does not = IQ, how smart you are etc.

 

[adam.vol]

I agree with you there. While related, the speed at which you make decisions does not = IQ, how smart you are etc.

I blame the sports pundits. They’re always talking about “high basketball IQ” and “high football IQ”.

 

[volfan102455]

I'm open to learning I'm wrong. But where did she say "players have to forget everything they know and relearn everything"? Or that her family hated her at Thanksgiving? Ot that effort is the only thing that matters in her system? If she said those things, I need to readjust my thinking. If she didn't, then I can continue to consider that what we saw this year might have multiple causes and that, in looking forward to next year, there are a number of things to be considered.

I don't have time to look back through all the media where CKC has said things - but early on she said that the team would not look good in the early parts of the season while they are learning how to play "the system" inferring that losses could happen. And that fans and everyone else probably would not be happy with what they were seeing happening on the floor.

She has also said the players will not like the conditioning and workouts that are part of this - so they tool are not going to like what they must do very much early in the season. The idea though is that wins later in the season will make it all worthwhile. But this year - those wins did not happen so the conditioning it takes to go full throttle and then some in 2 to 3 minute spurts did not pay off at all = frustration. Players probably felt like they did this all for nothing.

The system is not traditional basketball that the players are used to playing. Players have to learn to play so fast that they are saying "thank you for substituting me" because I was tired. They have to shoot from anywhere they are, not just from where they are comfortable shooting. They also have to learn to get into the flow of the game across spurts of playing, which I know at least one player has said that was very difficult to do. It is different - it is not traditional basketball at all.

I believe she has benefited from the weaker schedule in the early part of the season which gave a false sense that the back end would be great. After all, CKC has said the first part of the season is the difficult part. This year it was loaded with teams that they would beat just because of the talent differences. But they did not look good even when winning.

 

[volfan102455]

Being honest, CKC sometimes says things that get her in trouble later. Lack of filters is not always a good thing.

 

[madtownvol]

I really don’t wanna go back and dig up quotes partially because I’m astonished This would even be disputed. Has Kim not said more than once that players who played for her have to forget everything they knew and relearn it all? Also several times the famous comments that everyone including her own family will hate her at Thanksgiving, but thank her by the first of the year because that’s how long it takes to get her system down?

I think she very much embraces how hard everything about the system is. Think there’s quite a bit of macho involved in being the hardest working most effort requiring system in history. Gabe was asked early last year why more teams don’t run this system and he replied because no one else wants to work this hard. I could be wrong, but I thought that was Kim’s whole vibe.

As I’ve said many times, it’s also her fatal flaw because as several analysts have pointed out, effort and endurance are not separators in the SEC.

Also, "my teams are bad in November" has been CKCs mantra since she stepped on campus, which this season expanded "to my teams are bad in Nov and Dec but we will now be ready for the SEC schedule," which expanded to my teams are bad in conference play but we will be ready for tournament play......

 

[madtownvol]

I don't have time to look back through all the media where CKC has said things - but early on she said that the team would not look good in the early parts of the season while they are learning how to play "the system" inferring that losses could happen. And that fans and everyone else probably would not be happy with what they were seeing happening on the floor.

She has also said the players will not like the conditioning and workouts that are part of this - so they tool are not going to like what they must do very much early in the season. The idea though is that wins later in the season will make it all worthwhile. But this year - those wins did not happen so the conditioning it takes to go full throttle and then some in 2 to 3 minute spurts did not pay off at all = frustration. Players probably felt like they did this all for nothing.

The system is not traditional basketball that the players are used to playing. Players have to learn to play so fast that they are saying "thank you for substituting me" because I was tired. They have to shoot from anywhere they are, not just from where they are comfortable shooting. They also have to learn to get into the flow of the game across spurts of playing, which I know at least one player has said that was very difficult to do. It is different - it is not traditional basketball at all.

I believe she has benefited from the weaker schedule in the early part of the season which gave a false sense that the back end would be great. After all, CKC has said the first part of the season is the difficult part. This year it was loaded with teams that they would beat just because of the talent differences. But they did not look good even when winning.

Correct and you also highlighted the big disconnect between "the system's" key components" and game realities. Basketball games have so many starts and stops with fouls, FTS, TOs, that no well conditioned athlete gets worn out. CKC ideal is basically go in their and sprint as hard as you can until you fall over (that is like a minute) and then I will sub you, you recover and then go sprint again. But a basketball game is not a relay race. Short bursts and moments of recovery are built into the structure of game. You don't need repeated hockey line subs to keep players "fresh." I actually think over the course of the season, teams that have players playing more minutes become comparatively fitter than the LVS, who paradoxically often looked more fatigued than their opponents down the stretch.

That is what is maddening about the system. It is based on a series of very questionable about how to gain a competitive edge.

 

[Chipperbones]

I suggest you go back and listen to every press conference since her very first one. You will hear about unlearning everything you have been taught, you will hear about November always being a bad month (that moves to December this year etc) because the system is so hard to learn, etc. I promise you they are not making this stuff up.

 

[Lucy]

Who is we? Who stuck? Coach Caldwell got two commits in two days. Has signed more players in two years than the previous staff signed in about 4 or 5 years. And now she has realized that she must rebuild her program culture and has come out and absolutely blitzed the recruiting trail. I don’t know where you are but nobody supporting this program is stuck anywhere.
This is flat out high level recruiting!

So she signed a lot and lost them all.
We are indeed stuck with her. Hopefully DW is researching possible replacements as we speak. We will hope for the best next season and obviously support our student athletes to the max but the system is a problem.

 

[KB5252]

yes, but DW promised better results than what kellie had, and this is NOT it. DW is too egotistical to admit he’s wrong, so he’d rather sink a program that help build women’s basketball. he’s disgusting.

Kellie had the program going in the wrong direction, there's no denying that. KC gets this season to see what she can do with full control over her staff and players.

For a few different reasons she wasnt able to fit the squad to her system. If she can navigate this flipping the roster and staff she's earned more time.

 

[glv98]

I'm open to learning I'm wrong. But where did she say "players have to forget everything they know and relearn everything"? Or that her family hated her at Thanksgiving? Ot that effort is the only thing that matters in her system? If she said those things, I need to readjust my thinking. If she didn't, then I can continue to consider that what we saw this year might have multiple causes and that, in looking forward to next year, there are a number of things to be considered.

In addition to all the above, she has also said players hate me now but love me later several times.

But no thanks on digging up the actual quotes. You’d probably either say she didn’t mean it or I’m interpreting it overly harshly due to my confirmation bias.

I admire wanting to discuss and learn, but to do so there has to be at least a kernel of shared reality. If we can’t stipulate that Kim indeed said these things, I’m afraid we dwell on parallel reality planes that are not likely to converge.

 

[RetroVol]

If we can’t stipulate that Kim indeed said these things, I’m afraid we dwell on parallel reality planes that are not likely to converge.

That's fine. Totally understand not wanting to go dig for quotes. But we can't stipulate to contested facts. Reality isn't subject to subjective agreement. We'll just have to let this one sit, I guess.

 

[glv98]

That's fine. Totally understand not wanting to go dig for quotes. But we can't stipulate to contested facts. Reality isn't subject to subjective agreement. We'll just have to let this one sit, I guess.

And the fact that several posters above told you she had indeed said these things means nothing? The obliteration of truth has been so complete that we believe nothing from anyone anymore.

 

[1reVOLver]

Not really. It was obvious there were issues inside that locker room. We will find out more this year. The offensive philosophy is built on sound fundamentals. The test is whether her pressure defense will work well enough at this level.

As many times as one may state, “It’s obvious …”, that doesn’t make something factual. It’s a position one chooses to take. It may be a sound and valid position, but not necessarily to the exclusion of others, including contrary ones.

I believe that your last sentence above is beyond dispute.

One of the reasons that I cannot accept KC's first year at UT as a benchmark and year two as an aberration is her public statements about modifications, tweaks, adjustments or whatever term you may prefer. We are not comparing two identical iterations. And again, opponents having experienced it or seen it on film will have adjusted. There were more moving parts than personnel.

 

[volbeast33]

As many times as one may state, “It’s obvious …”, that doesn’t make something factual. It’s a position one chooses to take. It may be a sound and valid position, but not necessarily to the exclusion of others, including contrary ones.

I believe that your last sentence above is beyond dispute.

One of the reasons that I cannot accept KC's first year at UT as a benchmark and year two as an aberration is her public statements about modifications, tweaks, adjustments or whatever term you may prefer. We are not comparing two identical iterations. And again, opponents having experienced it or seen it on film will have adjusted. There were more moving parts than personnel.

That’s true the proof is yet to be determined. The system requires the players to buy in 100%. The entire team roster chose to leave. That seems to be pretty factual.

 

[madtownvol]

That's fine. Totally understand not wanting to go dig for quotes. But we can't stipulate to contested facts. Reality isn't subject to subjective agreement. We'll just have to let this one sit, I guess.

From Caldwell's first Press conference as LV Coach:

Caldwell is trying to build a new system for Tennessee to play with, and with a roster left behind following Kellie Harper’s firing, player strengths don’t necessarily match up. For that reason, Caldwell added some easier games to the front end of Tennessee’s slate.

“It takes us a really long time to learn how to play this way,” Caldwell said. “I would say in my nine years of coaching, our November record is probably our worst record because it takes time, and so I think that we need some room on our schedule where we can figure it out and we can grow.”

This season after a close win over Belmont:

On if the tougher schedule is why things aren’t clicking as early as last year

“Absolutely. That’s why we played it. That’s why we did it here, is to figure it out and figure it out early because I do think when you look back at our body of work last year, we figured this out late February. We figured this out, we had a stretch of games where we kinda figured some things out, and it was too late to learn if you don’t play hard, it doesn’t work. If you take bad shots, it doesn’t work. You don’t learn it early. We’re learning it now.”

So, what are the "contested facts" again?

 

[VolXr1]

So she signed a lot and lost them all.
We are indeed stuck with her. Hopefully DW is researching possible replacements as we speak. We will hope for the best next season and obviously support our student athletes to the max but the system is a problem.

Such a clown. Everyone knows you & few others dont like Kim NO MATTER WHAT or WHO she signs. Get over it. Quit crying. Either watch or dont. The crying is obnoxious. You're guessing a grown ass adult and crying over a message board CONSTANTLY. Grow up.

The system isnt the problem. The players were. The system has worked at her previous stops and in other programs at ALL levels of basketball. You clearly KNOW NOTHING about basketball.

 

[1reVOLver]

That’s true the proof is yet to be determined. The system requires the players to buy in 100%. The entire team roster chose to leave. That seems to be pretty factual.

We agree on the facts.

As to the motives, I suspect some differences of opinion.

Did they all choose to go elsewhere to play because,

1) they didn’t like the system?
2) they didn’t believe in the system?
3) they are all stupid kids, too immature to appreciate the brilliance of the system?
4) they are all, without exception, subject to nefarious outside influences, more potent than the words of their own head coach, telling them to seek fame and fortune over the horizon?
5) Martian mind rays…
6) some combination of the above?

We are now out of the realm of facts and into speculation, interpretations and HAGs. Personally, I just don’t know. It seems likely that there was some discord, but I'll leave creative writing to others.