The Impeachment Thread

There is also an abuse of power associated with leveraging military aid to country at war, against their President's willingness to announce an investigation into a political opponent.

...and in the best interest of the facts: The Inspector General, Michael Horowitz, concluded that the origins of the Russia probe were legitimate and that there was no evidence that a political bias played a role in the origins of the investigation.

The president spoke of the rough time our country had been through regarding the 2016 election, and could they do *us* a favor by looking into Ukraine interference and the Burisma/Biden matter. Politico had released a story over a week just before his inauguration about Ukraine officials trying to sabotage his candidacy. Some of them were convicted of those charges just last December.

Yet, you reduce it to an *allegation*, an *opinion*, that it's simply because he wanted to smear a political opponent. That's FBI-applying-for-FISA worthy.

Do you understand how limited IG reviews are? That they've no criminal powers, can't talk to people outside their departmental silos or former employees, and have no power to compel testimony/cooperation? Then you begin to understand that as damning as the report was, it's superficial. Horowitz stated he can not rule out bias given the recurring inability of those interviewed to provide satisfactory explanations. He agreed people, at minimum, should be fired. Acknowledging the FISA request falsification by FBI counsel, he concurred with Graham that the renewal of the warrant was under false pretense and therefore constituted *illegal surveillance*.
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Cruz: “A lawyer at the FBI creates fraudulent evidence, alters an email that is in turn used as the basis for a sworn statement to the court that the court relies on. Am I stating that accurately?"

Horowitz: "That's correct. That's what occurred"
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Graham: Let’s play this out. They never told Trump about the concerns, is it fair to say there came a point to where surveilling Carter Page became unlawful?

Horowitz: I will let the court decide that. The court has this report and will make that decision.

Graham: Let’s put it this way, if you don’t have a legal foundation to surveil somebody and you keep doing it, is that bad?

Horowitz: Absolutely.

Graham: Is that spying?

Horowitz: ‘It’s illegal surveillance, it’s not court authorized surveillance.

Graham: What ever illegal surveillance means, they did it. … They had no legal basis after the January 2017 data dump by the Russian guy to believe that the dossier was reliable. They alter exculpatory information in June of 2017 that would have further proven that Carter Page is not a Russian agent and he was actually working with the CIA.

This information verifying Page as a CIA asset was furnished to FBI OGC Attorney in August 2016
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Attorney General William Barr told NBC News that “in January, after the election, the entire case collapsed when the principal source says ‘I never told — I never told Steele this stuff and this was also speculation and I have zero information to support this stuff.’ At that point, when their entire case collapsed, what do they do? They kept on investigating the president well into his administration, after the case collapsed.”

Barr continued, “But here to me is the damning thing: They not only didn’t tell the court that what they had been relying on was completely, you know, rubbish, they actually started putting in things to bolster this Steele report by saying, ‘we talked to the sources and they appeared to be truthful,’ but they don’t inform the court that what they’re truthful about is that the dossier is false.”
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You have no defense for this. If you value your own liberty more than you hate/dislike Trump, you need to wake the hell up.

If this can be done to a presidential candidate and sitting president - and they walk away from it - what can they NOT do to BowlBrother85? Your family, your children??
There are no limits.
 
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If he doesn’t need an excuse, what was your purpose in bringing up the treaty in the first place?

I’m not saying Biden can’t be investigated and presenting that as a binary is a logical fallacy. It’s spin.

The political operatives who sign the investigators’ checks (i.e. the president) don’t need to be looking over the investigators’ shoulders and don’t need to have a hands-on role in that investigation.

That’s not just my opinion. It’s a long-standing policy at the WH and DOJ and it is why the treaty doesn’t contemplate the President’s involvement.

I already explained that, perhaps in a different post; for people who don't understand that a president can not only request another nation look into potential criminality involving U.S. citizens, but apparently can even force them to fire prosecutors.

Neither was Biden presented as a binary but simple statement of fact; that he is a candidate to become Trump's opponent doesn't change that. No spin needed.

Okay...which is why Trump three times mentioned AG Barr. I think Trump is likely satisfied that Ukraine is on the docket with other countries, on Durham's list, and has no intention of looking over their shoulder. As you know, DOJ is an executive branch dept., and the president can certainly request they look into a matter whether DOJ takes it up or not.
 
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I already explained that, perhaps in a different post; for people who don't understand that a president can not only request another nation look into potential criminality involving U.S. citizens, but apparently can even force them to fire prosecutors.

Neither was Biden presented as a binary but simple statement of fact; that he is a candidate to become Trump's opponent doesn't change that. No spin needed.

Okay...which is why Trump three times mentioned AG Barr. I think Trump is likely satisfied that Ukraine is on the docket with other countries, on Durham's list, and has no intention of looking over their shoulder. As you know, DOJ is an executive branch dept., and the president can certainly request they look into a matter whether DOJ takes it up or not.

Barr has certainly behaved as if he's the President's attorney. To this point, he hasn't acted as attorney general. He has lied on multiple occasions as well
 
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I already explained that; for people who don't understand that a president can not only request another nation look into potential criminality involving U.S. citizens, but apparently can even force them to fire prosecutors.

But that’s not what the treaty that you read does at all. It does not say the president can request that Ukraine open an investigation. In fact, it’s very explicit about who can make that request and does not mention the President.

Neither was Biden presented as a binary but simple statement of fact; that he is a candidate to become Trump's opponent doesn't change that. No spin needed.

Heres what you said:
“And unless we're to say that running for office exempts one from scrutiny - which we know NOT to be the case of candidate Trump - then a president can certainly voice that concern.”

Looks like a binary choice to me. Either Trump can request investigations or Biden is exempt. How is that not a binary choice?

Okay...which is why Trump three times mentioned AG Barr. I think Trump is likely satisfied that Ukraine is on the docket with other countries, on Durham's list, and has no intention of looking over their shoulder. As you know, DOJ is an executive branch dept., and the president can certainly request they look into a matter whether DOJ takes it up or not.

I don’t want to be repetitious, so I’ll just refer you back to my last post.
 
Do you understand how limited IG reviews are? That they've no criminal powers, can't talk to people outside their departmental silos or former employees, and have no power to compel testimony/cooperation?

Who did not cooperate with the investigation?
 
We rarely agree - at least in total on things, but I always appreciate your posts. There is reason in them.

Now on the political bravery, I somewhat agree with you. There are a few who live in districts unlikely to be amused by current dim tactics, so it's risky for them. However, for most, their impeachment was pandering to the blood thirsty crowd ... like a professional wrestler to the audience. The one who deserves credit is Tulsi because once again as a presidential candidate herself to abstain was the only honorable course when you consider the charges against Trump.

The last part is really interesting. Now we can have debate over whether the bell was rung, unrung, or if there was a misfire and no sound came out. Gotta love the nonsensical political world.
Glad to see you posting again. I always appreciate our conversations.

I agree with what you’re saying that for many democrats it was an easy choice and the base showed that when they were hating on Pelosi for not pushing it sooner.
 
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“Comey chose not to have his security clearances reinstated for our interview.” -Horowitz

“We’re the only IG that can’t review conduct of all the employees in our organization, including attorneys.” -Horowitz

Oh no, so Horowitz only talked to the non-security clearanced Comey? Not the other one? Huge difference.
 
Glad to see you posting again. I always appreciate our conversations.

I agree with what you’re saying that for many democrats it was an easy choice and the base showed that when they were hating on Pelosi for not pushing it sooner.

Thanks. I know my conclusions often seem off the wall, but as an engineer who spent a career diagnosing unanticipated behavior in systems without being bound by legal rules of engagement, I tend to look how things go from A to B with a different perspective. Machines tend to be more honest than people when they finally give up their secrets ... makes them easier to like.
 
Oh no, so Horowitz only talked to the non-security clearanced Comey? Not the other one? Huge difference.
So what value is an interview discussing security related investigative questions when the subject of the interview refused to reinstate clearance so that they could be answered?
So you know he interviewed Comey? His report appears to indicate otherwise. Post your link, I'd appreciate it.
 
Oh no, so Horowitz only talked to the non-security clearanced Comey? Not the other one? Huge difference.
Do you ever think about what you post?

Being able to ask Comey questions about the classified FISA applications would seem to be important in an investigation of alleged FISA abuse wouldn’t you agree?

He signed 3 of them.
 
And I will further state that your belief in the bureaucracy setting policy over an elected executive is disturbing. They are advisors.
Career experts, many of whom have spent a lifetime in a particular area of expertise, or a TV reality personality with zero knowledge, experience or expertise? Tough call. Talk about disturbing.
 
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