The Impeachment Thread

#29,529
#29,529
luthervol said:
The masses? Trump struck a nerve with a segment of society, far from the masses. I think more are turned off than turned on.
But he certainly did highlight and widen the divide......intentionally.
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Maybe most are turned off by him. But, not by his message. And he's been the only one with the nads to bring the message they've been waiting on someone to deliver. In anecdotal terms, if you want to close the divide, you have to dig it back to bedrock first. The first person to tackle that will always be the bad guy.

But, to hang your hat on Trump as a reprehensible person would also require one to find the Kennedy's reprehensible to be credible in his judgement of others. Joe Kennedy would have chewed Trump up like cheap bubble gum, and made him look like an altar boy.
 
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#29,530
#29,530
BowlBrother85 said:
I have read the transcript and Trump does ask Zelensky to assist Giuliani in his investigation of the Bidens. There is no mention of corruption - just of an investigation into the Bidens... while Trump is also advancing a conspiracy theory from a Russian disinformation campaign (The CrowdStrike Theory), that involved the Ukraine having the hacked DNC server. That crazy theory has been de-bunked all over the internet over the last 2 years and yet, Trump was still bringing it up on a call to the Ukrainian President on July 25th. That is absolutely ridiculous behavior from the President of the United States. Zelensky probably didn't even know what in the hell he was talking about. Trump is a nut.
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“I will personally tell you that one· of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just.recently and we are hoping very much that Mr.
Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and. we will meet once he comes to Ukraine.”

This is the first mention of Guiliani. That’s Zelensky. Trump then goes on to say that Rudy was mayor of New York. And finally said, “I you could speak to him that would be great.”

Please stick to the transcript
 
#29,531
#29,531
newyorkvol said:
“I will personally tell you that one· of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just.recently and we are hoping very much that Mr.
Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and. we will meet once he comes to Ukraine.”

This is the first mention of Guiliani. That’s Zelensky. Trump then goes on to say that Rudy was mayor of New York. And finally said, “I you could speak to him that would be great.”

Please stick to the transcript
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No, Trump brought up Giuliani first.
 
#29,533
#29,533
BowlBrother85 said:
I have read the transcript and Trump does ask Zelensky to assist Giuliani in his investigation of the Bidens. There is no mention of corruption - just of an investigation into the Bidens... while Trump is also advancing a conspiracy theory from a Russian disinformation campaign (The CrowdStrike Theory), that involved the Ukraine having the hacked DNC server. That crazy theory has been de-bunked all over the internet over the last 2 years and yet, Trump was still bringing it up on a call to the Ukrainian President on July 25th. That is absolutely ridiculous behavior from the President of the United States. Zelensky probably didn't even know what in the hell he was talking about. Trump is a nut.
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I hear his guys are finding out some incredible stuff about Obama's birth certificate in Hawaii. Once that comes out . . . oh wait, yeah he's been a nut in the making-stuff-up business for a while now. This is just more of the same. I'm less shocked by that than by the average Trumper's level of self-pretzeling logic needed to excuse all this.
 
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#29,535
#29,535
Rifleman said:
I hear his guys are finding out some incredible stuff about Obama's birth certificate in Hawaii. Once that comes out . . . oh wait, yeah he's been a nut in the making-stuff-up business for a while now. This is just more of the same. I'm less shocked by that that the average Trumper's level of self-pretzeling logic needed to excuse all this.
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Trump even went on Fox and Friends the day after Fiona Hill testified before the House Oversight Committee detailing how the "CrowdStrike Theory" was part of a Russian disinformation campaign and Trump recited that crazy theory word for word. Trump even said that CrowdStrike was owned by a wealthy Ukrainian which is easily fact-checked. CrowdStrike is based out of Sunnyvale, California. Trump is a nut.

As part of the July 25th phone call, Trump was even trying to get Zelensky to look for the DNC server. It's true. Trump is just plain crazy.
 
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#29,536
#29,536
Rifleman said:
I hear his guys are finding out some incredible stuff about Obama's birth certificate in Hawaii. Once that comes out . . . oh wait, yeah he's been a nut in the making-stuff-up business for a while now. This is just more of the same. I'm less shocked by that that the average Trumper's level of self-pretzeling logic needed to excuse all this.
Click to expand...

Don’t confuse me for a “Trumper.” I’m just a skeptic of all politicians. Let’s investigate them all. See what crops up. And I’m trying to see things for what was actually said. Not for what someone is telling me. I’ve read the transcript. Try just reading Zelensky’s parts and then pretzel yourself into thinking he felt “pressured.”
 
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#29,538
#29,538
What consequences, if any, should there be when McConnell, Graham, and the others who have already claimed they *won't* be impartial jurors are sworn in?

"The key to the system working as it should is the understanding that the Senate as a court of impeachment is a different institution than the Senate as usual. When the Senate moves to become an impeachment court, senators take a new oath. At that moment the institution transforms itself.

That’s why, according to Article I, section 3, clause 6 of the Constitution, senators, when sitting on a trial of impeachment, “shall be on Oath or Affirmation.” Of course, when elected to the Senate, all senators swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. But the senators, when sitting as a court, are asked to take an additional oath. It is a juror’s and judge’s oath—not a legislator’s oath.

Rule XXV of the Senate Rules in Impeachment Trials provides the text: “I solemnly swear (or affirm) that in all things appertaining to the trial of ____, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.”

How Will Republican Senators Honor Their Impeachment Oaths?
 
#29,539
#29,539
newyorkvol said:
You just proved you didn’t read it. That was at the very end of the conversation.
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Come again? Trump clearly meant himself and Giuliani when he said "us". The focus of the phone call was Trump's attempt to both prove his crazy and easily disproven Russian disinformation "CrowdStrike theory" and to dig up dirt on the Bidens - which was of benefit to nobody but his own campaign.
 
#29,540
#29,540
MontyPython said:
What consequences, if any, should there be when McConnell, Graham, and the others who have already claimed they *won't* be impartial jurors are sworn in?

"The key to the system working as it should is the understanding that the Senate as a court of impeachment is a different institution than the Senate as usual. When the Senate moves to become an impeachment court, senators take a new oath. At that moment the institution transforms itself.

That’s why, according to Article I, section 3, clause 6 of the Constitution, senators, when sitting on a trial of impeachment, “shall be on Oath or Affirmation.” Of course, when elected to the Senate, all senators swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. But the senators, when sitting as a court, are asked to take an additional oath. It is a juror’s and judge’s oath—not a legislator’s oath.

Rule XXV of the Senate Rules in Impeachment Trials provides the text: “I solemnly swear (or affirm) that in all things appertaining to the trial of ____, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.”

How Will Republican Senators Honor Their Impeachment Oaths?
Click to expand...

It’s a great question. And should be asked of Democrat Senators as well.
 
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#29,541
#29,541
MontyPython said:
What consequences, if any, should there be when McConnell, Graham, and the others who have already claimed they *won't* be impartial jurors are sworn in?

"The key to the system working as it should is the understanding that the Senate as a court of impeachment is a different institution than the Senate as usual. When the Senate moves to become an impeachment court, senators take a new oath. At that moment the institution transforms itself.

That’s why, according to Article I, section 3, clause 6 of the Constitution, senators, when sitting on a trial of impeachment, “shall be on Oath or Affirmation.” Of course, when elected to the Senate, all senators swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. But the senators, when sitting as a court, are asked to take an additional oath. It is a juror’s and judge’s oath—not a legislator’s oath.

Rule XXV of the Senate Rules in Impeachment Trials provides the text: “I solemnly swear (or affirm) that in all things appertaining to the trial of ____, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.”

How Will Republican Senators Honor Their Impeachment Oaths?
Click to expand...
Not only is McConnell saying he won't be impartial but he has also said that he will be coordinating a defense with Trump's legal team.
 
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#29,542
#29,542
newyorkvol said:
Don’t confuse me for a “Trumper.” I’m just a skeptic of all politicians. Let’s investigate them all. See what crops up. And I’m trying to see things for what was actually said. Not for what someone is telling me. I’ve read the transcript. Try just reading Zelensky’s parts and then pretzel yourself into thinking he felt “pressured.”
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Who are you? I don't remember saying poster X is a member of the Trumplican party.

Of course a guy who needs Javelin tank-buster missiles from the U.S. to combat an existential threat from an ongoing invasion would not feel any pressure. I totally agree with you because when I picked up the transcript I had a lot of stuff in my arms and had to put something down. So, I dropped my basic logic and common sense and kept on reading.
 
#29,543
#29,543
BowlBrother85 said:
Come again? Trump clearly meant himself and Giuliani when he said "us". The focus of the phone call was Trump's attempt to both prove his crazy and easily disproven Russian disinformation "CrowdStrike theory" and to dig up dirt on the Bidens - which was of benefit to nobody but his own campaign.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think it would benefit “us” as a country if we knew that one of our elected officials had used his position to get a position for his son at a corrupt company in a corrupt country and then protect him when people sniffed around.

A secondary benefit would certainly be to the Trump campaign, but overall exposure of corruption amongst US politicians would be a greater priority.
 
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#29,544
#29,544
newyorkvol said:
Personally, I think it would benefit “us” as a country if we knew that one of our elected officials had used his position to get a position for his son at a corrupt company in a corrupt country and then protect him when people sniffed around.

A secondary benefit would certainly be to the Trump campaign, but overall exposure of corruption amongst US politicians would be a greater priority.
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I think it would be of benefit to our country if the President of the United States wasn't promoting Russian disinformation talking points on cable news and trying to send the President of the Ukraine on a wild goose chase for a server that doesn't exist. Take a good look at that transcript again. It is very clear that Donald Trump honestly believes the "CrowdStrike theory" that has been de-bunked all over the internet... and that has also been directly linked to Russian propaganda. That is just plain bat $hit crazy.
 
#29,545
#29,545
newyorkvol said:
Personally, I think it would benefit “us” as a country if we knew that one of our elected officials had used his position to get a position for his son at a corrupt company in a corrupt country and then protect him when people sniffed around.

A secondary benefit would certainly be to the Trump campaign, but overall exposure of corruption amongst US politicians would be a greater priority.
Click to expand...
...and would Trump have been asking Zelensky for an investigation into the Bidens if Joe wasn't running for President? Hell no.
 
#29,546
#29,546
Rifleman said:
Who are you? I don't remember saying poster X is a member of the Trumplican party.

Of course a guy who needs Javelin tank-buster missiles from the U.S. to combat an existential threat from an ongoing invasion would not feel any pressure. I totally agree with you because when I picked up the transcript I had a lot of stuff in my arms and had to put something down. So, I dropped my basic logic and common sense and kept on reading.
Click to expand...

Right. No logic or common sense. Those are nice because you can define those things on your own terms.
 
#29,550
#29,550
GVF said:
Maybe most are turned off by him. But, not by his message. And he's been the only one with the nads to bring the message they've been waiting on someone to deliver. In anecdotal terms, if you want to close the divide, you have to dig it back to bedrock first. The first person to tackle that will always be the bad guy.

But, to hang your hat on Trump as a reprehensible person would also require one to find the Kennedy's reprehensible to be credible in his judgement of others. Joe Kennedy would have chewed Trump up like cheap bubble gum, and made him look like an altar boy.
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm not even sure of what the message is, it sort of gets lost in all of the horrendously despicable behavior. It seems to be that the media is bad (the media which he loves and craves more than any previous POTUS) and that the people you perceive think they are better than you are actually not only not better, but they are your enemy. That the country as we know it is being attacked from both within and without by people who do not look or think like us and they must be stopped. Something like that?

Don't know a lot about Joe Kennedy, but JFK and Trump represent polar opposite trajectories for humanity.

But I've always said Trump was the one to take us to rock bottom, so on that we agree.
 
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