The honeymoon is ALREADY over? Shocking numbers

It makes good sense. There are many who would rather live with less (off the government) than have to work with a chance to have more. To each his own, as you put it.

Two things.

(a) That's their business, but I can't find it in my heart to be JEALOUS of them, which is what people on this board seem to be trying to convince me to do.

(b) For the fourth time, if we find their mooching unpalatable, then let's close the teat. I don't mind making life uncomfortable enough for them that they have to join the rest of us and contribute. Again, I believe in progressive taxation but NOT necessarily welfare.
 
"So low"? It was you that said a bunch of middle-income families weren't paying income tax. Those families are paying plenty in sales and gas and property taxes and SS taxes.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure every income bracket ends up paying about 20% of their income in total taxes, but I can't find the link at the moment.)

no they aren't paying plenty. that's ridiculous. sales tax maxes out at 10% of expenditures. and it's a tax i'm paying too. it's about people paying for their fair share.
 
Two things.

(a) That's their business, but I can't find it in my heart to be JEALOUS of them, which is what people on this board seem to be trying to convince me to do.

(b) For the fourth time, if we find their mooching unpalatable, then let's close the teat. I don't mind making life uncomfortable enough for them that they have to join the rest of us and contribute. Again, I believe in progressive taxation but NOT necessarily welfare.

Couldn't disagree more. Their business is funded by "others".
 
(b) For the fourth time, if we find their mooching unpalatable, then let's close the teat. I don't mind making life uncomfortable enough for them that they have to join the rest of us and contribute. Again, I believe in progressive taxation but NOT necessarily welfare.

sigh.

let's say someone is making 30k a year and spend every dime of it. that's 3K a year in sales tax or gas tax or whatever. i assume you don't own a house if you are making 30k a year. now all you need is ONE kid in high school costing $15k a year and you are way negative to society. and that doesn't include fire and policemen and roads and all the other crap they use. the rich are shouldering too much of the burden. they shouldn't have to pay for their families and 10 other families. it's absurd.
 
no they aren't paying plenty. that's ridiculous. sales tax maxes out at 10% of expenditures. and it's a tax i'm paying too. it's about people paying for their fair share.

In a sense that is already a progressive tax. The more you buy, the more you put in.
 
i've thought about it.

it's not just welfare and social security, it's pensions for the unions. lots of crap that can be cut before we have to start talking about china invading us. and the 47% that doesn't pay taxes doesn't need protection and education? it's just an absurd argument by you.

No, it isn't.

Here is my argument:

1. We need protection, education, infrastructure. MUST have these three, if nothing else. We probably need to throw in some more cheap stuff like research and diplomacy, but whatever. At least we need defense, and that's expensive.

2. Since higher earners stand to lose more in case of invasion, and since they have more discretionary income, they should pay a higher percentage. Just to fund defense, forget all the safety net stuff.

3. But with that said, yes, everyone should pay something, and 50k families should not be paying 0. (and they aren't--probably more like 20% in the end, just not in income taxes.)

4. Our tax code sucks. It's confusing, and it's EXTREMELY difficult to see who is paying what, between income, property, sales, gas, wheel, luxury, on and on and on. Simplify it so we can all see what we're contributing. The complication just lets politicians play games with us. Screw that.

5. Welfare, SS, health care are SPENDING issues. I'm happy to revisit and/or cut them. If we were arguing that there are too many dollars going to SS, then I wouldn't be arguing against you. We disagree on the correct way to COLLECT the money; spending it is a different topic, on which we probably have much in common.

HTH.
 
so since defense is 20% of the budget then i assume you'd be ok with a flat tax for everyone for 80% of taxes and a progressive for 20%?
 
so since defense is 20% of the budget then i assume you'd be ok with a flat tax for everyone for 80% of taxes and a progressive for 20%?

Sure.

Why not split into 2 categories, actually:

Things That Benefit All Of Us: Defense, education, research, international affairs, infrastructure...progressive tax

Things That Benefit Moochers: flat

That would be fine with me.
 
sigh.

let's say someone is making 30k a year and spend every dime of it. that's 3K a year in sales tax or gas tax or whatever. i assume you don't own a house if you are making 30k a year. now all you need is ONE kid in high school costing $15k a year and you are way negative to society. and that doesn't include fire and policemen and roads and all the other crap they use. the rich are shouldering too much of the burden. they shouldn't have to pay for their families and 10 other families. it's absurd.

First, 20% is the rate I've heard...almost everyone ends up paying 20% one way or another.

Second, they cost the system 15k a year ONLY FOR FOUR YEARS. They pay in for their whole life (as does the costly kid who actually got educated, but that's another story). So 40 work years at 6k per year is 240k...that pays for the kid in high school many times over.

Anyway, assuming we had an education system that actually worked, it would be to all our benefits to educate the kids whether their parents were deadbeats or not. An educated society is a good thing for all of us.

(whether education is working is another question entirely...)
 
1. What in heaven's name are you whining about? You made better decisions and worked harder than your S-I-L, and you have a MUCH better life as a result. You sound so bitter and angry about the "unfairness" of it all, but her life sucks and yours seems fine.
I am not whining. I am stating a simple, objective, moral absolute... it is morally wrong and therefore unfair to take by force that which was earned by one able bodied person and give it to another able bodied person simply because the second person decided partying and unemployment were more fun than responsibility and work.

2. Progressive taxation is not about "rewarding" those who do less, and "punishing" those who do more. Taxation is about collecting money to run a country, not about punishment.
You are naive. Progressive taxation is very much about trying to "level the table".

If you want to raise revenue then a simple sales tax is the most efficient way there is of doing that. Much less administrative cost and fewer ways or motives to attempt evasion.

3. It's fair because those who have gotten more out of the system (you and me, as opposed to your SIL) have more reason to keep things running smoothly.
Things will run just as smoothly for me if my taxes are "fair" compared to her. She suckers off the system you and I feed. She makes NO CONTRIBUTION to the welfare of us all. That is not "fair".
Think about it: if our infrastructure or army came crashing down tomorrow, you and I have a lot to lose, because we've made good decisions and have a good thing going.
Where did I say I had a problem with supporting infrastructure, police, military, and other services that benefit us all, ie "common welfare".

My problem is with transfer payments to people who are capable of contributing but instead receive "entitlements"... as if someone is "entitled" to something they did not earn.

Your SIL has little to lose, according to you: she's broke and a burnout. What does she care if China invades tomorrow?
No. She has far more to lose. In the event that a catastrophe like you propose occurred, moral and productive people would band together for their mutual benefit. She would starve.

4. It's also fair because you and I have more ability to contribute.
That doesn't make it fair. Not in the least. In fact, that is precisely why it is NOT fair. I have more ability not because I was "lucky"... but because of values and effort.
When I was in grad school with kids, I couldn't do that...those last 20 cents would have meant the difference in gas in the car and food on the table.
Which is why something like the "Fair Tax" is fair while the progressive income tax is not.

5. Your sister-in-law probably thinks it's all unfair too, and she got a raw deal. I'd tell her that life's not fair, and she made bad decisions and now she has to live with them.
She absolutely does. She doesn't see her life as the sum of her choices.
But I still don't understand why YOU don't think things are "fair."
In the simplest possible terms... because stealing is wrong. It is wrong to take from someone who owns something to keep or to give it to someone else who didn't earn it. I am not talking at this point about those who have some physical or mental incapacity that prevents them from providing for themselves. I am talking about people who make poor choices then expect those who make good choices to give them what they need and even want.

You made better decisions and have a better life. Why u mad bro?

I'm no more "mad" than you. I thought we were having an objective conversation about the ideals of society and economics?

FWIW, if there were no programs like this for my SIL... we would probably take her own as a charity case and make sure she had at least what she needed as long as she would straighten up. This is why charity is vastly superior to entitlements. Charities can demand good behavior. Gov't programs either can't or won't.
 
not understanding your point. i'd say for DOING NOTHING it's a pretty damn good life supported by those who work for a living.

He's right. She's a miserable human being... which makes it even WORSE that we are being forced to enable her to continue making the same bad decisions.
 
Quit your job and apply for welfare then, if that's the life for you. It's not for me.



Defense is about 20% of expenditures.

The safety net programs you don't like are only 14%.

Where did you get that number? Soc Sec alone is about 20%... and THAT is where her check comes from. She also gets food stamps, medicaid, etc. Not only is she drawing... an army of people are involved in taking money from me to give to her. In total, safety net programs make up not less than 35% of the budget even if you do not include those supporting the elderly.
 
Two things.

(a) That's their business,
No. It is their "business" if they're doing it on "their" dime. When they start picking my pocket to pay for it... It becomes "my business".
but I can't find it in my heart to be JEALOUS of them, which is what people on this board seem to be trying to convince me to do.
You are either trying to set up a straw man or have really missed the point. Fairness and jealousy have nothing to do with each other concerning this except to the extent that it is HER jealousy and that of busybody liberals. I still don't get how folks, in this case you, think you are taking the moral high ground by being generous with things that don't belong to you.

If you want to "progressively" tax your income and give it to less productive people then that is YOUR BUSINESS... All I am saying is keep your fingers out of my pocket.
 
Your logic is the same that gave us outcome based education.

Tell me Step... do you think faster football players should have to wear ankle weights so that it is "fair" to those of us who can't run fast? Should we make good shooters in b-ball shoot with their off hand whenever a weaker opponent is behind?

Why does it bother you so badly that the successful should enjoy the fruit of their labor at the same percentage as the less successful or even unsuccessful? Why are you jealous like that? Why do you insist on meddling in someone else's business by applying a different standard to them?

I'm not the most successful person in the world. But it doesn't bother me one bit to see someone more successful than me enjoy the fruit of their ingenuity and effort. I certainly don't think they should pay a higher percentage in income tax just because they can "afford it"... maybe if I had worked as hard and made the sacrifices... I could have afforded it?
 
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Two things to add. First a tax code has three essential attributes:

Simple
Transparent
Progressive

Second, wasn't it Marx who stated the universal and equal obligation to work?

StepCross is exactly right, and using the argument first put forward by Adam Smith - those with the most to lose have the most to gain by good governance. Hence, progressivity makes sense; it's the practical argument on what is morally self-evident.
 
If you want to "progressively" tax your income and give it to less productive people then that is YOUR BUSINESS... All I am saying is keep your fingers out of my pocket.

I have said four time...five now...that I would be completely OK with cutting off your SIL from the gov't teat, and that I'm not a fan of entitlement programs.

Again: I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE YOUR MONEY TO UNPRODUCTIVE PEOPLE.

Hell, let her starve. She made her choices, I'm OK with that. Maybe she'll even decide to work instead of starving (I doubt it though).

Progressive taxation is STILL the right way to tax.
 
Your logic is the same that gave us outcome based education.

Tell me Step... do you think faster football players should have to wear ankle weights so that it is "fair" to those of us who can't run fast? Should we make good shooters in b-ball shoot with their off hand whenever a weaker opponent is behind?

Why does it bother you so badly that the successful should enjoy the fruit of their labor at the same percentage as the less successful or even unsuccessful? Why are you jealous like that? Why do you insist on meddling in someone else's business by applying a different standard to them?

What on earth are you talking about?

Not only do I not think these things, I have said over and over IN THIS THREAD that I don't think them.

You're either being dishonest or you're not paying attention.

I am TOTALLY opposed to equality of outcome. I'm not even a fan of the old "equality of opportunity," because I think that's a pie-in-the-sky ideal that isn't possible in reality.

You have some notion in your mind that "progressive tax code" is the same as "equality of outcome" and "wealth redistribution" and a host of other republican fear-propaganda. Back away from the code words and "liberal commie" generalizations and read what I'm actually saying.

They're not the same thing.
 
You have some notion in your mind that "progressive tax code" is the same as "equality of outcome" and "wealth redistribution" and a host of other republican fear-propaganda.

let me make this simple. Person A pays a higher % of his income in taxes because person B pays a lower % of their income in taxes. Wealth is going from person A to person B.
 
Two things to add. First a tax code has three essential attributes:

Simple
Transparent
Progressive
I reject your arbitrary imposition on me. I demand you respect MY RIGHTS by NOT applying your moral standard for taxation to me. How's that?
Second, wasn't it Marx who stated the universal and equal obligation to work?
:lolabove::lolabove: Yeah... that was original with Marx.

FWIW, the Bible NT says that a man who won't work shouldn't eat and that someone who will not support his own family is worse than an infidel.

Jesus' parables ASSUME a free market economy.

OTOH, He very clearly made charity and the distribution to the poor a PERSONAL and moral obligation. Read the story of the rich young ruler... Jesus didn't tell him to raise taxes from others to give to the poor... he told him to sell what HE owned and give it to the poor.

StepCross is exactly right, and using the argument first put forward by Adam Smith - those with the most to lose have the most to gain by good governance. Hence, progressivity makes sense; it's the practical argument on what is morally self-evident.
Progressivity is in no way moral. It is quite immoral. As a Christian and accepting biblical principles... we are to do our business on fair balances. Our system of equal justice for all... blind justice... is wholly contradicted by the progressive income tax.

It would be wrong to arbitrarily tax hispanics more than blacks... it is even more morally wrong to tax those who work harder more than those who work less.
 
I am TOTALLY opposed to equality of outcome.
Then you should not support the progressive income tax because that IS its premise. Read what gibbs just wrote. Progressivity is designed to "morally" level the playing field.

I'm not even a fan of the old "equality of opportunity," because I think that's a pie-in-the-sky ideal that isn't possible in reality.p
Yes it is if you understand it right. In fact, it would mean that everyone get treated the same... rich and poor. It does not mean equality of ability or advantage... only that everyone gets the same rules to play by and freedom.

You have some notion in your mind that "progressive tax code" is the same as "equality of outcome" and "wealth redistribution" and a host of other republican fear-propaganda.
It isn't a notion. It is a mathematical fact.
Back away from the code words and "liberal commie" generalizations and read what I'm actually saying.

They're not the same thing.

Stop with the drama and realize that they ARE the same thing.

I think the income tax is wholly illegitimate by principle... progressivity just makes it even more immoral.
 
the only difference between the current tax system and me sending a check directly to loser A is marketing.
 
I reject your arbitrary imposition on me. I demand you respect MY RIGHTS by NOT applying your moral standard for taxation to me. How's that?
:lolabove::lolabove: Yeah... that was original with Marx.

FWIW, the Bible NT says that a man who won't work shouldn't eat and that someone who will not support his own family is worse than an infidel.

Jesus' parables ASSUME a free market economy.

OTOH, He very clearly made charity and the distribution to the poor a PERSONAL and moral obligation. Read the story of the rich young ruler... Jesus didn't tell him to raise taxes from others to give to the poor... he told him to sell what HE owned and give it to the poor.

Progressivity is in no way moral. It is quite immoral. As a Christian and accepting biblical principles... we are to do our business on fair balances. Our system of equal justice for all... blind justice... is wholly contradicted by the progressive income tax.

It would be wrong to arbitrarily tax hispanics more than blacks... it is even more morally wrong to tax those who work harder more than those who work less.

You got me. I'm going to go reread Max Weber "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" now to atone.

I forgot Jesus was a free marketer despite getting arrested for vandalizing the banks.

:facepalm:

PS - I reject your blind justice as it affects my rights. I wanted 20 / 20 vision justice.
 
let me make this simple. Person A pays a higher % of his income in taxes because person B pays a lower % of their income in taxes. Wealth is going from person A to person B.

No it isn't!

It's being taken from both of them, just at different rates.

If I'm making, lets say, 40k, and it's just barely enough to take care of my family, then taxing me at 15% and you at 20% isn't "giving me wealth" at all! At that salary I'd spend every penny I made on food and housing and utilities.

Where is this mysterious "redistribution of wealth" in that scenario?

You're just taking two things you disagree with and merging them into one thing.
 
No it isn't!

It's being taken from both of them, just at different rates.

If I'm making, lets say, 40k, and it's just barely enough to take care of my family, then taxing me at 15% and you at 20% isn't "giving me wealth" at all! At that salary I'd spend every penny I made on food and housing and utilities.

Where is this mysterious "redistribution of wealth" in that scenario?


You're just taking two things you disagree with and merging them into one thing.

the earned income tax credit.
 
It isn't a notion. It is a mathematical fact.

Stop with the drama and realize that they ARE the same thing.

No. No, no, no.

Progressive taxation does NOT lead to equality of outcome.

You call it a mathematical fact, so let's just do the math.

Person A makes 100k, and is taxed at 20%. That gives them 80k left to work with, free and clear.

Person B makes 50k, and is taxed at 15%. That gives him 42,500 left to work with, free and clear.

Equal outcomes?

Absolutely not...not even close.
 
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