The effort is there ... all you Butch naysayers need to pay attention

#51
#51
Tennessee is 13th in the league in turnover margin on the season (-3), while Alabama is third in the league (+5).

We have fumbled it 25 times on the year. That is ridiculously bad and not something that championship teams do.
 
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#52
#52
thegasman54 said:
These guys are playing to the end no matter what ... we have a very bright future here with Jones. Times are good

The last few Fulmer years and certainly the Dooley fiasco those teams had slot of quit in them. Not these players
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Who said that Jones' teams didn't play with effort or to the end? Straw man much?

What is and has been the question is whether Jones can get it done on game day.... and there always seems to be SOMETHING. Last year, they couldn't close. This year, they don't seem to wake up until they're down a couple of scores. Last year practice injuries. This year game injuries.

There are also some very legitimate concerns as to why he has so many key players get injured (and has in each of the last 3 years) and this year why his players cannot hold on to the ball whether dropping passes or fumbling.

And before you start rationalizing.... NO reasonable person expects "perfection" every game. The concern is patterns. One bad game... OK. Two... Hmmm. Three or more games with guys laying balls all over the field and you have to start wondering about the effectiveness of the coaching.

So far, Jones has handled adversity much better this year than the previous 3. But there's a lot more for him to prove.
 
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#54
#54
BeardedVol said:
How would you characterize your insinuation that any criticism of Butch Jones' coaching ability is tantamount to suggesting he be fired immediately?
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That's fair.

I see post after post after post complaining about "it's all Butch's fault." Everything seems to be his fault. Go see Wylo's post, pick a thread. He gets talked about like he has no clue whatsoever. He's a gutless coward.

I don't love Butch, but He deserves some credit and more respect than what he gets from some. He has not had an easy road to get us where we are. He needs to fix some things badly and I don't know if he can. BUT, it could be worse, he fixed something from last year because we finish games this year and are 5-1, injuries are not his fault, etc. blah blah blah, you've heard the rest.

So, too late for long story short.....It is his responsibility, but how do I hold him accountable?
 
#55
#55
Behr said:
That's fair.

I see post after post after post complaining about "it's all Butch's fault." Everything seems to be his fault. Go see Wylo's post, pick a thread. He gets talked about like he has no clue whatsoever. He's a gutless coward.

I don't love Butch, but He deserves some credit and more respect than what he gets from some. He has not had an easy road to get us where we are. He needs to fix some things badly and I don't know if he can. BUT, it could be worse, he fixed something from last year because we finish games this year and are 5-1, injuries are not his fault, etc. blah blah blah, you've heard the rest.

So, too late for long story short.....It is his responsibility, but how do I hold him accountable?
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I think Butch is a good recruiter. I think Butch is a good game planner. I think Butch has a really good eye for talent that can be coached up.

I also think Butch does not enjoy game-day coaching. His sideline presence, clenched jaw, red face, arms crossed, he just looks like he'd rather be anywhere else than on an SEC sideline. The team comes out and plays just like he looks until they literally beat the anxiety out of themselves in the first 30 minutes of the game.

I know fumbles and dropped passes are part of the game, and they are going to happen, but when we see them week in and week out, from the first game regardless of the team we are playing, there's a problem with how the team is being coached in practice.

It's the same with all of the PI calls that the DBs are drawing because Martinez coaches them to never look back at the ball. At some point Butch as the head coach has to evaluate how those position coaches are coaching their sections.
 
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#56
#56
BeardedVol said:
I think Butch is a good recruiter. I think Butch is a good game planner. I think Butch has a really good eye for talent that can be coached up.

I also think Butch does not enjoy game-day coaching. His sideline presence, clenched jaw, red face, arms crossed, he just looks like he'd rather be anywhere else than on an SEC sideline. The team comes out and plays just like he looks until they literally beat the anxiety out of themselves in the first 30 minutes of the game.

I know fumbles and dropped passes are part of the game, and they are going to happen, but when we see them week in and week out, from the first game regardless of the team we are playing, there's a problem with how the team is being coached in practice.

It's the same with all of the PI calls that the DBs are drawing because Martinez coaches them to never look back at the ball. At some point Butch as the head coach has to evaluate how those position coaches are coaching their sections.
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Seriously?

Okay, to me your posts read like you want to hold him accountable. By firing him.

Don't mean to be an ass, but I guess I am. :dunno:
 
#57
#57
There is no accountability on this board at least. There is a problem. A lot of us have been telling you there is a problem, but the pumping of sunshine would not allow any questioning.

This team has heart and never quits. That is a huge improvement...but:

1) How, in game 6, are we not able to start a football game?

2) How in Game 6, are we still laying the ball down all over the field over and over?

3) How do our DBs not understand looking back when covering receivers?

I agree this team is special and CBJ has played a huge part in that. It just seems he is unable to put it all together.
 
#58
#58
Behr said:
Seriously?

Okay, to me your posts read like you want to hold him accountable. By firing him.

Don't mean to be an ass, but I guess I am. :dunno:
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So because I think Jones doesn't look like he enjoys gameday coaching, that means he should be fired?

Maybe he looks that way because he knows the first half is going to be hot garbage again, I don't know, I can only go off what I see from him each week. He just looks like he is out of his comfort zone the entire game.
 
#61
#61
sjt18 said:
Who said that Jones' teams didn't play with effort or to the end? Straw man much?

What is and has been the question is whether Jones can get it done on game day.... and there always seems to be SOMETHING. Last year, they couldn't close. This year, they don't seem to wake up until they're down a couple of scores. Last year practice injuries. This year game injuries.

There are also some very legitimate concerns as to why he has so many key players get injured (and has in each of the last 3 years) and this year why his players cannot hold on to the ball whether dropping passes or fumbling.

And before you start rationalizing.... NO reasonable person expects "perfection" every game. The concern is patterns. One bad game... OK. Two... Hmmm. Three or more games with guys laying balls all over the field and you have to start wondering about the effectiveness of the coaching.

So far, Jones has handled adversity much better this year than the previous 3. But there's a lot more for him to prove.
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agreed. i think if Butch continues what he started after last year, meaning finding ways to continue to keep getting better, then you may see a couple of coaches on the offensive side of the ball being replaced. not saying he will, or that he should really, but it is hard to ignore the deficiencies, or trends, you mentioned.
 
#62
#62
No, that's what happens when I deal with idiots that keep pushing thier agenda with a vengeance, having thier questions answered, cherry picking the answers to serve that agenda to suit them, and keep repeating themselves. All the while telling me Butch has to be accountable, but yet also telling me there is no accountability on this board.

And, you still haven't answered me,

Now what?
 
#63
#63
BeardedVol said:
True, we are recovering 2/3 fumbles, but we are averaging 3.5 fumbles/game, and that's only in the first half of the season. For reference, last year we were 1.6 fumbles/game over the entire season, and we were .5 fumbles/game lost.

Those numbers are not good. We have serious issues this year keeping the ball secure, that we did not have last year.
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The fumbles were uncharacteristic. Dobbs turned it over 4 times which is unusual. Like I said CBJ is carrying a ball all week to get the guys used to not dropping the ball. I see it as an issue but not a preparation issue. I see it as a good group of kids that have pile of expectations on their shoulders and are doing their best to fill them.
 
#64
#64
What is obvious is that our team can play. The issue is they aren't ready coming out of the locker room in the first half. That really can't be put on the players' shoulders.
 
#65
#65
Titan&Volfan4life said:
I can't explain the slow starts and I doubt any of our coaches can explain it either or else they would have already corrected it.

We're 5-1 and without all the turnovers we would be undefeated at 6-0 and would have beaten aTm by 2 or 3 TD's at least with over 700 yards of O.

If you think buTch or any of our coaches like to lose then you better shave your beard and change your hair color because you're not paying attention my friend.

WIN by WIN we'll earn our respect and climb the rankings...VFL...GBO!!!
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Plays are there in first qtr. Players just have to make the plays and hold the ball
 
#66
#66
Wow! We are a 5-1, top ten team. Given our injuries to legitimate all-star caliber players and the toughest of our schedule, I think Butch has done one hell of a job. And if that puts me squarely in the camp of the sunshine pumpers, then so be it!
 
#67
#67
Behr said:
No, that's what happens when I deal with idiots that keep pushing thier agenda with a vengeance, having thier questions answered, cherry picking the answers to serve that agenda to suit them, and keep repeating themselves. All the while telling me Butch has to be accountable, but yet also telling me there is no accountability on this board.

And, you still haven't answered me,

Now what?
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Well, Butch has two choices, he either looks at the failing positions, and goes out looking for better coaches, or he doubles-down and hitches his wagon to staff members who are not getting the job done. Things are not going to improve if he just continues down the same path,expecting different results from the same efforts.

This board, the media, and any Vol fan is not going to stop talking about the issues we see every week, just because you feel like you've heard it enough. We see the sorts of mistakes every week, Jones has team issues that he is either unable or unwilling to address, and the ramifications are evident on the field. 
 
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#68
#68
And...there it is. While it is true Coach Butch has done a great job getting us where we are, the question remains whether he can take us where we need to be.

So
1) Can CBJ take us to a national championship team and one that often competes for a national championship?

2) If CBJ is unable to do that, are we, as Volnation, satisfied with a 10-2 ceiling and missing the playoffs and likely the SECCG year after year?
 
#70
#70
The Tall Gguy said:
What is obvious is that our team can play. The issue is they aren't ready coming out of the locker room in the first half. That really can't be put on the players' shoulders.
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This. We know the level of talent that we have. We've seen the pure athleticism of this team. What we haven't seen, is that talent and athleticism tooled into an even moderately consistent football team. That's coaching. You do not see this much sloppy play from perennially well-coached teams.
 
#71
#71
The Tall Gguy said:
What is obvious is that our team can play. The issue is they aren't ready coming out of the locker room in the first half. That really can't be put on the players' shoulders.
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i struggle with this one. cause i do agree, the not being prepared thing is hard to swallow.

but i can't honestly believe that it's not being addressed, discussed etc....

so while i agree with you, it can't be put on their shoulders....it can't be taken off of them either.

at some point, they have to bring the"want to", collectively.

i don't know how to explain why a guy can have 3 drops in the 1st half, and play like an all american in the 2nd. or why arm tackle in the 1st, gang tackle in the 2nd.....

and i can't imagine anything that's said at half time in each and every game that magically turns the switch on.
 
#72
#72
The Tall Gguy said:
And...there it is. While it is true Coach Butch has done a great job getting us where we are, the question remains whether he can take us where we need to be.

So
1) Can CBJ take us to a national championship team and one that often competes for a national championship?

2) If CBJ is unable to do that, are we, as Volnation, satisfied with a 10-2 ceiling and missing the playoffs and likely the SECCG year after year?
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If CBJ let's go of his determination to keep assistant coaches, who wouldn't be coaching at any other SEC school, then I think he has a very good chance of getting Tennessee back into national contendership.
 
#73
#73
especially considering how last year we generally came out with our hair on fire.

it doesn't make any sense. it's gonna have to take soemthing sort of drastic to turn that around. bench some guys in the 1st half...you drop a ball....sit. you fumble....sit. you miss an assignment on o line....sit. bust a coverage...sit. quit on a route....sit.

you get the idea. the message has to be "this isn't acceptable; there is a standard to up hold here"
 
#74
#74
82_VOL_83 said:
The fumbles were uncharacteristic. Dobbs turned it over 4 times which is unusual. Like I said CBJ is carrying a ball all week to get the guys used to not dropping the ball. I see it as an issue but not a preparation issue. I see it as a good group of kids that have pile of expectations on their shoulders and are doing their best to fill them.
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Fumbles were uncharacteristic last year. This year, we've been fumbling regularly, but not recovering them was uncharacteristic until the Georgia game. We are averaging 3.5 fumbles a game this year. Players are still one-arming the ball while still fighting for yards after 1st, 2nd, and 3rd contact; that's a problem. I'm all for effort, but ball-security is paramount. All that effort for yardage is wasted if in that last yard surge the ball gets stripped.
 
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#75
#75
The Tall Gguy said:
And...there it is. While it is true Coach Butch has done a great job getting us where we are, the question remains whether he can take us where we need to be.

So
1) Can CBJ take us to a national championship team and one that often competes for a national championship?

2) If CBJ is unable to do that, are we, as Volnation, satisfied with a 10-2 ceiling and missing the playoffs and likely the SECCG year after year?
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if we go 10-2 consistently, we'll be in our fair share of SEC title games. and maybe occaisonally when we win the title, maybe we're in contention for a playoff berth.

i don't know. i want SEC titles too. but in today's day and age, it's hard. hell, Alabama has the thing sewn up just about every year, we're all playing for 2nd place until......

so for me......i want to be relevant in the conference and division as long as we can each and every year.

division
conference
playoff
gravy

if we're doing #1 on a more consistent basis, then it opens up the door for the other stuff, and you just take that for what it is. so kind of like during the fulmer years....i'm hesitant to say he has to do this x # of times etc...cause it's so unpredictable.

but if we're a 9 or 10 win team year in, year out, chances are we're accomplishing #1 fairly regularly....we're beating 1 or 2 of the 3 big rivals pretty regularly, going to good bowl games, and at the end of the day....i guess yeah, i'd be good with that. if we do those things regularly, then there will be opportunities for 2, 3, 4....
 
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