The book that might end every discussion on Volnation.

daj,

I agree with your assessment that you can typically pick about 70% winners based on talent.

I think it would be interesting to see how well VN can pick games before the season starts based on the data we currently have. Most people predicted somewhere between 5-7 and 7-5 last year but did they predict the correct 5 wins? How many predicted wins over Mizzou and Auburn? A win over SC?

I "predicted" 7-5 using this system, just like this year "predicts" 8-4. Last year was a 2 game under-performance, with the 2 losses being against the largest over-performers in the SEC. That is a large difference between the -3 to -4 game performance we could expect under Dooley, and I believe old Lane was right around -3 as well. When Lane was fired from USC, he was the coach under-performing at the biggest rate in the NCAA. Off the top of my head, I believe Muschamp holds that record now. The threshold for being fired is -4 games a year, by the way.

Similarly the system "predicted" Auburn's regular season exactly (a loss to lessor talented LSU is washed by a win over greater talented Bama). People berate me when I say this, but Auburn didn't deserve to win the SEC west based on the perception of that one game.

Bama was still the better team, and would have verly likely won the championship if they played FSU (talent evals are 90% correct in championship games). As that pdf illustrates, we tend to over-react to one game exceptions in performance. This trend is explicitly illustrated in the way the polls work. They favor the perception of teams, and not the reality.

Teams are rewarded for numbers of wins, and not numbers of quality wins (even if there is lip service given to strength of schedule). As I have said ad naseum, if polls were true to their intent, a team could end up top ten in the polls with 7 losses, if those losses came against teams 1-6, but our current system would not allow for that. In fact, fans want to cite the importance of being ranked, then totally ignore this inconsistency.

I am wrapping up much of my philosophy in one short discussion, so the proof is incomplete and scattered. My apologies.
 
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It's always fascinating to watch cognitive dissonance at work. "Being wrong hurts my ego, therefore I refuse to look at information that might prove me a fool." For anyone still left in this thread the onus of proof is not on daj2576. He's provided a source. If you want to prove him wrong you need to provide a similarly compelling counter source backed up by data, and rigorous data at that.
 
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This is a great thread. I enjoyed reading all the inputs (especially the initial post of course). I would love to read this book when I get a chance.
 
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I "predicted" 7-5 using this system, just like this year "predicts" 8-4. Last year was a 2 game under-performance, with the 2 losses being against the largest over-performers in the SEC. That is a large difference between the -3 to -4 game performance we could expect under Dooley, and I believe old Lane was right around -3 as well. When Lane was fired from USC, he was the coach under-performing at the biggest rate in the NCAA. Off the top of my head, I believe Muschamp holds that record now. The threshold for being fired is -4 games a year, by the way.

Similarly the system "predicted" Auburn's regular season exactly (a loss to lessor talented LSU is washed by a win over greater talented Bama). People berate me when I say this, but Auburn didn't deserve to win the SEC west based on the perception of that one game.

Bama was still the better team, and would have verly likely won the championship if they played FSU (talent evals are 90% correct in championship games). As that pdf illustrates, we tend to over-react to one game exceptions in performance. This trend is explicitly illustrated in the way the polls work. They favor the perception of teams, and not the reality.

Teams are rewarded for numbers of wins, and not numbers of quality wins (even if there is lip service given to strength of schedule). As I have said ad naseum, if polls were true to their intent, a team could end up top ten in the polls with 7 losses, if those losses came against teams 1-6, but our current system would not allow for that. In fact, fans want to cite the importance of being ranked, then totally ignore this inconsistency.

I am wrapping up much of my philosophy in one short discussion, so the proof is incomplete and scattered. My apologies.

I agree with pretty much exactly what you said here. Most people on here would have looked at making a bowl game last season as progress. I doubted that thought process. In 2012, UT had the lead against UF and had the ball driving against UGA and USC. 3 big games where UT had a legitimate shot against very good competition.

Hell, they even had a "shot" at Miss St. They just made too many mistakes.

So in reality, in 2012 the team had several chances to get that 6th win their D just sucked something awful.

My point is, if you simply look at record, you're missing a lot "reality" about a particular team...especially the one you root for the most.

Take this season's basketball team. Even in the SEC tourney people were whining about UT. I made the point in the basketball forum that if someone who had never seen a college basketball game watched the UT/UF SEC tournament game there is no way in hell that person wouldn't have thought the 2 teams were fairly evenly matched...much less UF being the #1 team and UT being the #45 team (or whatever).
 
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I agree with pretty much exactly what you said here. Most people on here would have looked at making a bowl game last season as progress. I doubted that thought process. In 2012, UT had the lead against UF and had the ball driving against UGA and USC. 3 big games where UT had a legitimate shot against very good competition.

Hell, they even had a "shot" at Miss St. They just made too many mistakes.

So in reality, in 2012 the team had several chances to get that 6th win their D just sucked something awful.

My point is, if you simply look at record, you're missing a lot "reality" about a particular team...especially the one you root for the most.

Take this season's basketball team. Even in the SEC tourney people were whining about UT. I made the point in the basketball forum that if someone who had never seen a college basketball game watched the UT/UF SEC tournament game there is no way in hell that person wouldn't have thought the 2 teams were fairly evenly matched...much less UF being the #1 team and UT being the #45 team (or whatever).

Here is another area where this sort of evaluation applies. We are going on a run of almost ten years of losing to the gators. The simple fact is that I cannot find a time that UT has a four-year trailing average that is higher than the Gators. As a baseline that means that every year UF comes into the game with a 70% chance of winning.

Fans create this mind-set where UF has some sort of psychological hold on UT. No, it is just that most people truly do not understand the likelihood of a 9 run series, especially when the "coin toss" of each event is weighed 70/30 and is totally independent of the previous. There have been times that UT could have won, to be sure. In fact, Florida (at least in relation to their talent) is a woefully under-performing program, even with 2 national championships in the past decade. Until Florida plays a yearly series against the top recruiting team from the west (it is rarely LSU), they shouldn't lose a SEC game. But, they do.

This means that while people cite Florida and Foley as being the paradigm of a well oiled athletics machine, they are actually missing how Florida tends to turn a Ferrari into a Ford more often than not. In my view, with Florida's resources, and an AD that understands how to use them, UF could create a juggernaut that would be truly terrifying.

Similar with Saban. Saban's strength is his recruiting, his weakness is his ability to adjust to coaching schemes (see also Fulmer). Again, the BCS titles tend to blind the observer from the fact that with the talent that Bama accumulates, much more should be expected. Forgive the hyperbolic example, but if the Patriots played in C-USA, should anyone really be impressed that they have three titles? I would hope not, but Saban has the reputation of being the best coach in the land. He is an adequate coach, but a master of accumulating talent. That does have an enormous amount of value, but not for the reasons most think.

For instance, it was rumored Texas was willing to spend 10 million dollars a year to buy Saban. Why?! Texas doesn't need a recruiter, almost any coach could grab a bull horn and step outside his front porch in Austin and yell "Hook 'Em" and fill up a top 5 class of recruits. Texas needs a coach that can coach top talent without hindering those results. You could almost pay a high school coach to do that. Personally, I think their recent hire indicates this sort of backwards, institutionalized, thinking.

I have long thought that at a school like UT, who is digging its way out of a financial hole, that the paradigm should shift. The head recruiter should be a much more well paid position, and should attract big name buzz. What if Jones could bring back a guy like Fulmer whose only job is to recruit? Pay Fulmer a million a year, but he never actually coaches. Imagine the team of Jones/Fulmer/Thigpen and others out there selling the UT brand. Allow Fulmer, or this recruiting position person, to be the family liason, the sort of quality control assuring that the kids are taken care of, and performing in the class as well. I think there is much value in ideas like that, instead of trying to buy a "big name" coach who is likely over-valued (see the basketball coaching search if you want an example of the fan perception that I am discussing).

Don't get me wrong, I love what Butch is doing, and his history of over-performance is very likely to translate to big things here (find another coach that has averaged winning more than 3 games a year over his talent predictions for 7 years, and who also has a history of increasing talent averages every year at a school).

I simply think there are ways to use the data that we have about what actually drives success, and capitalize off of that in a way that no one else is doing. Some bash Hart, but when I hear him say that the key to success at UT is recruiting, that recruiting is UT's "lifeblood", I think that he at least understands some of this data. His hires tend to support his own theory. Most fans just don't "get it" though...

Or, maybe I just think about all of this too abstractly from a position of only academic understanding?
 
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Last night I was thinking about "loss aversion" and how Spurrier at UF capitalized on it.

In 1996, UF was at UT. On the 1st drive of the game UF faced a 4th and 11 on the UT 35. It was somewhat rainy that day and Spurrier felt a 52 yard FG wasn't his best option. So he went for it. Why not? If it fails, at worst you give up 15 yards of field position (only a couple of minutes into the game) considering a punt would have, most likely, gone into the endzone.

We all know what happened. They scored a TD. But it wasn't Spurrier being some renegade coach. The math said, "go for it." The gain (1st down or score) outweighed the potential loss (a few yards of field position).

Remember UT's 1st TD in the Fiesta Bowl vs. FSU? Prior to the TD, UT had kicked a FG to go up 3-0. On that play, FSU committed a penalty giving UT the option of keeping the FG or a 1st and goal. "Conventional wisdom" says you never take points off the board. Why not? Loss aversion! Even though the game was slow in getting going, Fulmer knew 3 points wasn't going to beat FSU.
 
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finished the book last night. the analysis of the chicago cubs is interesting. the cubs have forever sucked, but have some of the highest attendance figures in baseball (high 90%) even while having some of the most expensive tickets in baseball (close to $50 while some other teams are in the $15 range).

so why do fans line up to watch the loser cubs?

the authors postulate that a possible explanation is that as long as the fans show up, the cubs admin has no incentive to take the extra steps necessary to become a championship organization. IOW, as long as fans are willing to pay for mediocrity, they get mediocrity.

i have heard that argument more than once applied to UT football.
 
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Florida (at least in relation to their talent) is a woefully under-performing program, even with 2 national championships in the past decade.

which fits with my contention that, even with 6 secc and one NC in his time at UF, steve superior could be considered an under achiever. many say that fulmer's success was mainly because the rest of the sec (especially bama and uga) was going through a down period, and the only team he had to beat was UF. if this is true, then the only team that UF had to beat was UT, which they did regularly.

one could thus argue that CSS "should" have had 9 or 10 secc, and maybe 3 or 4 nc, while at UF.
 
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which fits with my contention that, even with 6 secc and one NC in his time at UF, steve superior could be considered an under achiever. many say that fulmer's success was mainly because the rest of the sec (especially bama and uga) was going through a down period, and the only team he had to beat was UF. if this is true, then the only team that UF had to beat was UT, which they did regularly.

one could thus argue that CSS "should" have had 9 or 10 secc, and maybe 3 or 4 nc, while at UF.

Other than the NC's, he pretty much hit the SEC #.

1990- on probation
1991- SEC Title
1992- played for SEC Title. Lost to NC
1993- SEC Title
1994- SEC Title
1995- SEC Title
1996- SEC Title
1999- Played for SEC Title
2000- SEC Title

So they were ineligible in 1990, so Spurrier only had 11 chances, not 12. Out of those 11, he won 6 and lost 2 times to Bama. UT's 3 appearances were about par for the course.

Your point about UT only needing to beat UF, the same did apply for UF but one of their permanent West games was LSU whereas UT had Bama.
 
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Great stuff in this thread.

Is there any statistical basis for making personnel decisions in football like we're starting to see emerge in basketball? I.e. Player A does Action X most efficiently so here's how we're going to use him to make our offense as effective as possible.
 
Great stuff in this thread.

Is there any statistical basis for making personnel decisions in football like we're starting to see emerge in basketball? I.e. Player A does Action X most efficiently so here's how we're going to use him to make our offense as effective as possible.

Like Sabermetrics?

I hate to say it, but I think Urban Meyer is probably the closest thing to that in college football. Look at the 2006 UF team. Chris Leak wasn't his ideal QB but he was able to use Leak and supplement with Tebow and use the other playmakers to get the ball in their hand.

I'd say Malzahn is probably in that group as well.
 
Like Sabermetrics?

I hate to say it, but I think Urban Meyer is probably the closest thing to that in college football. Look at the 2006 UF team. Chris Leak wasn't his ideal QB but he was able to use Leak and supplement with Tebow and use the other playmakers to get the ball in their hand.

I'd say Malzahn is probably in that group as well.

I was thinking like SportVU, which NBA teams are using to mathematically determine the tendencies of their opponents and aid game planning. I checked their website and they don't offer a football tracking system, just basketball and soccer. I can see where it would be difficult for football with 22 players executing a called play rather than "read and react" like in the other two sports.
 
Your point about UT only needing to beat UF, the same did apply for UF but one of their permanent West games was LSU whereas UT had Bama.

true, but after the early 90's bama started their relative slump and LSWho was nothing in the 90's compared to after the turn of the century. through 2000 UT was 19-3-3 against LSWho, since 2001 UT is 2-5 against them.
 
true, but after the early 90's bama started their relative slump and LSWho was nothing in the 90's compared to after the turn of the century. through 2000 UT was 19-3-3 against LSWho, since 2001 UT is 2-5 against them.

LSU was horrible, I agree. Auburn was their other permanent opponent and they had their ups and downs. Outside of the losses to UT, I think Spurrier only lost to UGA in 1997 from the East from 1991-2001.

Miss St., Auburn, LSU, and Bama beat him from the West.
 
which fits with my contention that, even with 6 secc and one NC in his time at UF, steve superior could be considered an under achiever. many say that fulmer's success was mainly because the rest of the sec (especially bama and uga) was going through a down period, and the only team he had to beat was UF. if this is true, then the only team that UF had to beat was UT, which they did regularly.

one could thus argue that CSS "should" have had 9 or 10 secc, and maybe 3 or 4 nc, while at UF.
Florida pretty much did own the SEC at the time, but they had to contend with FSU out of conference every year. FSU knocked them out of a shot at the NC a few times.
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Florida pretty much did own the SEC at the time, but they had to contend with FSU out of conference every year. FSU knocked them out of a shot at the NC a few times.
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plus during superior's era, FSU and miami gave UF a lot of recruiting competition
 
So far, so good here. In some cases (like the baseball balls/strikes part), it just statistically confirms what I already believed. In others, it really challenges the way I view sports, coaching, and officiating.
 
Mathletics is NOT an easy read.

No it is not. Now that another year of law school is coming to a close, I'm seriously considering retaking some stats classes. I haven't seen some of this stuff since undergrad (15 years ago?).
 
So far, so good here. In some cases (like the baseball balls/strikes part), it just statistically confirms what I already believed. In others, it really challenges the way I view sports, coaching, and officiating.

Of all of the sports books that I have read, this one has done more to inform me than the rest combined.
 
You could try thepiratebay.se

If you know how to use torrents. I'm surprised we still have discussions on this forum. lol
 
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