The argument for giving a coach more time

[photovol]

You're correct. My personal opinion is need to sustain relative success over number of years ranging from 8-10 wins, then hope to catch that player(s) to put you over the top...but takes time to get there. Both Dickey and Majors only had 4 wins in their first year. The key question is, whether you've got the right HC to develop and build the program. Butch did give us two 9 win seasons, but there always seemed to be the "choke" factor in important games, and didn't build depth on OL/DL, which did him in and put us in this spot today. Pruitt is tough minded and plain spoken and can recruit...which are big steps in the right direction. Could be entirely wrong, and I can't tell you who, but I think we'll get an SEC win from someone this year, whether it's us playing lights out, or someone playing down to our level.

Fingers crossed

 

[Cartervol]

Dabo got difference making classes. Clemson was and is still getting players that would have probably went here. Tennessee needs a couple difference making classes. More difficult to do since the pool of players has been divided up more since their rise to prominence.. They're part of the reason we stink now. Our players play for them.

 

[Vol524]

Butch doesn't know chit about players or how to judge their talent. To prove this point, the NFL ROOKIE OF THE YEAR was Butch's BACKUP running back. Enough said about Butch and he coaching and development skills. HE SUCKED! Dobb's is one hell of a backyard QB. Once Dobb's was gone the REAL Butch came to light.

 

[Jack Burton]

The only coach worth giving time was Kiffin. The next two showed their ceiling pretty quick. Pruitt has enough SEC experience to allow him time.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

If you read the post it said "in the first place". Not talking about Pruitt. I was talking about Kiffin, Dooley, Butch. I don't know about Pruitt yet.

It's easy to see in hindsight, but at the time, Kiffin was not a bad hire. He would have won here if he had stayed. He may have gotten a show cause, but he would have won.

I'm sure it's be said over and over, but Dabo made pretty big strides pretty quickly. He finished first in the ACC three of his first five years and was 40-21 in that time.

 

[05_never_again]

- Surrounded with quality coordinators. I think this is what has made smart look brilliant early on, Chaney is a very good oc.

That's a pure hindsight thing. He looks good now because he's at Georgia with great talent.

At Tennessee, he did have some offensive talent, but I was never all that impressed with him. Bray never did anything worth writing home about against a good defense.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It starts with clear progress on the field. That has to be evident, or doubt begins to creep in. Dooley never had that, so after 3 he was gone. Butch had it, so he got a couple more years; but couldn't hold it, the progress became regress, and he was out.

But there are things we fans don't always see, sometimes only hear vague rumors of, that contribute as well. It's the intangibles that help the AD determine whether the program (not just the team, the entire program) is on track. Are the lads going to class, making good grades, staying out of trouble? Is the mood in the locker room positive, supportive, team-oriented? Are the coaches leading by example in their personal lives? These things also can give a coach another year, or take one away from him.

Dooley's habit of embarrassing his players publicly for a laugh (showers, Rommel, etc.), as well as the extreme extent to which he alienated both former players and high school coaches, probably cut off any good will that might have gotten him a fourth year. Butch, on the other hand, had the intangibles working in his favor in the early years--embracing Tennessee tradition, talking a good talk (though it would turn out he wasn't walking the walk). That turned around and hurt him after the questions began to pile up (did he hit one of his players? did he have to embarrass the program with that inane comment? was he making promises to recruits that he couldn't keep?).

At the end of the day, though, the team has to win. At a place with championship trophies in the cabinets and a whole lot of pride throughout the fan base, that means winning at the highest levels. Without that, time will eventually run out, no matter how well everything else is going.


p.s. One after-thought: almost goes without saying, but it's also a different world in the 21st Century. Johnny Majors would never have gotten 16 years with his roller-coaster pattern of progress. If he were coaching in this decade, he'd probably have been fired at the end of his fourth year, and certainly by the end of his sixth.

 

[MaTaLa]

Just a snippet, I think recruiting class rankings are way overvalued when gauging the success level of a coach. Really, who cares at the end of the season when success is measured by wins and losses.

 

[VolFan..But]

It's easy to see in hindsight, but at the time, Kiffin was not a bad hire. He would have won here if he had stayed. He may have gotten a show cause, but he would have won.

I'm sure it's be said over and over, but Dabo made pretty big strides pretty quickly. He finished first in the ACC three of his first five years and was 40-21 in that time.

He would have won?? Like he has all over?? LOL!! His first recruiting class was horrific.

 

[VolFan..But]

The only coach worth giving time was Kiffin. The next two showed their ceiling pretty quick. Pruitt has enough SEC experience to allow him time.

Death Penalty

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The only coach worth giving time was Kiffin. The next two showed their ceiling pretty quick. Pruitt has enough SEC experience to allow him time.

It depends what you mean by "pretty quick," but no. After three seasons, Butch was still looking like a guy who could get us to the championship level. Most Tennessee fans, including the vast majority of the folks on this board, were mostly happy with the 2015 season. Upset we didn't win even more that year (the close losses to Oklahoma and Florida stood out), but still generally pleased with the progress.

Let's don't COMPLETELY reinvent the past now that we know it was a house of cards being built.

 

[EastTN]

How about hiring a proven coach in the first place.

No proven coach wanted this job PERIOD

 

[sameolvol]

It starts with clear progress on the field. That has to be evident, or doubt begins to creep in. Dooley never had that, so after 3 he was gone. Butch had it, so he got a couple more years; but couldn't hold it, the progress became regress, and he was out.

But there are things we fans don't always see, sometimes only hear vague rumors of, that contribute as well. It's the intangibles that help the AD determine whether the program (not just the team, the entire program) is on track. Are the lads going to class, making good grades, staying out of trouble? Is the mood in the locker room positive, supportive, team-oriented? Are the coaches leading by example in their personal lives? These things also can give a coach another year, or take one away from him.

Dooley's habit of embarrassing his players publicly for a laugh (showers, Rommel, etc.), as well as the extreme extent to which he alienated both former players and high school coaches, probably cut off any good will that might have gotten him a fourth year. Butch, on the other hand, had the intangibles working in his favor in the early years--embracing Tennessee tradition, talking a good talk (though it would turn out he wasn't walking the walk). That turned around and hurt him after the questions began to pile up (did he hit one of his players? did he have to embarrass the program with that inane comment? was he making promises to recruits that he couldn't keep?).

At the end of the day, though, the team has to win. At a place with championship trophies in the cabinets and a whole lot of pride throughout the fan base, that means winning at the highest levels. Without that, time will eventually run out, no matter how well everything else is going.


p.s. One after-thought: almost goes without saying, but it's also a different world in the 21st Century. Johnny Majors would never have gotten 16 years with his roller-coaster pattern of progress. If he were coaching in this decade, he'd probably have been fired at the end of his fourth year, and certainly by the end of his sixth.

Yep. All that makes sense to this old Vol, '82. To those doubting CJP's propensities to do as well as the Dabos or Kirbys or Jimbos, et al, lets recognize the near 3-D printer-ish depictions that've come out of the Nick Saban Graduate School of Coaching. Coach Pruitt's background is, at worst, equal to or, at best, potentially a bit higher than those three NC contending fellas. Really? Aforementioned lineup should explain why his chances for success at UT could be equally as successful as have been his Saban U grad student mates.

Dabo took 3 years with a team that he at least had hands-on knowledge of the system; one that had been handed over to him. He didn't have to start from the basement as did CJP. And, he had lots of talent and a great QB.
Kirby inherited a team which was pre-trained for him as to pro-style offenses and defenses (through Richt's tenure)...plus they were already loaded with high-end athletes who already were savvy as to Kirby's and his SEC veteran assistants' schemes.
Jimbo Fisher was FSU's OC for his first three years and, as it was with Dabo, he inherited a system he already was raised with, those players on the roster (Bobby Bowden-recruited studs) didn't require an iota of re-learning, and Coach Fisher's Seminoles were NCs in his third year there as HC.
Coach Pruitt inherited none of the above, aside from a storied program as are UGA and FSU (Clemson's almost there). As he pulls in studs that're equal to the above-mentioned programs, he'll deeply instill the right stuff into these boys...and turn them into SEC men. The system works, kids, and that's the one being built in Knoxville. I expect a hard-nosed, fiercely competitive team to evolve from all this. When? I wouldn't bet on it at this juncture, considering the dearth of SEC studs currently on this roster. Nonetheless, given CJP's recruiting acumen, I'm expecting marked improvements throughout the lineup...climbing upward beginning game one of 2019. Patience is logical.

 

[MaTaLa]

No proven coach wanted this job PERIOD

I wonder why...maybe because since Fulmer we've had nothing but 'shot in dark' fire sale type hires that have decimated too much of the football culture here instead of hiring a proven coach.
But given our 'last' hire, CJP was probably the best of the slim pickens especially w/ the huge dump Haslam, via Currie proxy, took on us.

 

[rjd970]

Almost started a thread similar to this.

I listen to sports talk radio every morning and afternoon commuting to work. Giving a coach time is a popular gripe from the talking heads and they blame the constant need for instant gratification and how Saban, Chizik, Smart, etc ruined it by having almost immediate success. Tennessee is consistently brought up as an example of what happens when you constantly chase success instead of giving it time. Its always how many coaches we've had over the last 10 years.

I take issue with some of that. First, one wasn't our fault, Kiffin left us in the middle of the night, literally. At that point in time the fanbase was excited about what he could accomplish and were willing to give him time. Dooley got what, 3 years? Defense continually got worse, game management was horrendous and it was always something every week, there was zero sign of upward trajectory. I also believe Butch got more than a fair shot, but as his system and culture got instituted the trajectory was showing a downward trend, culminating with the worst season in program history. I really believe any school in our situation over the last 10 years would have done the same thing we did.

I get Tennessee is the laughing stock of the conference now. It is what it is. But the impatience of the fans are not to blame, it is the athletic department and university leadership that the blame should be leveled against. The fans want a good team on the field, the leadership was more worried about the bottom dollar and bowing to the cronyism of powerful boosters.

By and large I think the UT fanbase has been more than patient and fair with the coaching hires and including us in the group of fans that just simply want instant gratification isn't fair.

 

[Gatornator]

How about hiring a proven coach in the first place.

Proven coaches are hard to come by anywhere, especially at dumpster fire programs like UF and UT last year. I mean even Mullen who spent 9 years at MSU and won NC with Tebow as OC is not really that proven. He has a losing record in the SEC and poor record against ranked teams. We had to pay 6.1 million a year just to get him. We maybe in a similar camp by the end of this season, but the win in Neyland certainly helps his cause. Not expecting a win tomorrow at Starkville, but if he pulls it off, then he would have done something that Spurrier didn't do.

Now let us look at other "Proven coaches" and how they are doing. Frost: 0-3. Chip Kelly 0-3. Taggert is 2-2 and is an absolute joke. Harabaugh got beat by ND in his first game, and played 3 terrible teams after that, so I am not sure he is showing "significant success" there. At least you guys are winning your cupcakes I guess.

I think no matter what the hire is, you have to roll the dice. I just don't think Pruitt is the answer, mainly because of what I have seen from him so far, and mainly because we have grown so tired of trying to imitate Alabama and hiring coaches from the Saban tree with our last two busts. Saban is 13-0 against his former assistant coaches for a reason. Even Kirby is still unproven to me. With the talent he is getting, he should get a natty this year or next year. He seems to be chocking at the big stage.

Regardless, you guys are stuck with Pruitt for probably 3 years at least unless he commits some drastic error. So hold your horses and hope for the best.

 

[KBVol]

How about hiring a proven coach in the first place.

Say, like Dabo, Smart and James Franklin?

 

[rocky top buzz]

Almost started a thread similar to this.

I listen to sports talk radio every morning and afternoon commuting to work. Giving a coach time is a popular gripe from the talking heads and they blame the constant need for instant gratification and how Saban, Chizik, Smart, etc ruined it by having almost immediate success. Tennessee is consistently brought up as an example of what happens when you constantly chase success instead of giving it time. Its always how many coaches we've had over the last 10 years.

I take issue with some of that. First, one wasn't our fault, Kiffin left us in the middle of the night, literally. At that point in time the fanbase was excited about what he could accomplish and were willing to give him time. Dooley got what, 3 years? Defense continually got worse, game management was horrendous and it was always something every week, there was zero sign of upward trajectory. I also believe Butch got more than a fair shot, but as his system and culture got instituted the trajectory was showing a downward trend, culminating with the worst season in program history. I really believe any school in our situation over the last 10 years would have done the same thing we did.

I get Tennessee is the laughing stock of the conference now. It is what it is. But the impatience of the fans are not to blame, it is the athletic department and university leadership that the blame should be leveled against. The fans want a good team on the field, the leadership was more worried about the bottom dollar and bowing to the cronyism of powerful boosters.

By and large I think the UT fanbase has been more than patient and fair with the coaching hires and including us in the group of fans that just simply want instant gratification isn't fair.

You did a better job making my point! Look beyond wins and losses, look at the programs. Had Kiffin stayed 3-4 years and then left around bowl season it wouldn't have had the negative impact as him leaving days before NSD. Dooley, the signs were evident he couldn't manage a program the way he treated former players and current staff and the way quality coaches left. Butch is the one that I think was a good recruiter and in-game coach but the injuries and transfers showed he couldn't do the job Sunday thru Friday.

I think Pruitt is an improvement in several areas. We do not know yet if he is a good game-day coach and we don't know how he will run a program long term. I do think there are some concerns of, does he want to be a leader and do the things that head coaches do, or does he just want to deal with x's and o's? I don't think Tennessee has to win the sugar bowl in 3 years to tell us if he is the right guy, I think these other focus points will tell everything we need to know.

 

[Samuellbronkowitz]

Leach?

How many proven coaches did we offer "proven coach" money? You cant get a Lexus on a Kia price offer.

Put up enough money and you will find a proven coach.

Leach seemed like that he did want to come here. Problem was that the guy who was hiring him got canned and in a head-scratching move, the Administration told him thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Samuellbronkowitz]

Leach, Mullen and Miles all had interest

Yep. But we didn't even give Mullen a whiff because Haslam and Currie put all their chips in on Schiano. Currie at least did make an effort to get Leach before the rug was pulled from under him. And I would love to had Miles come in for a few years to build up the team for a younger coach.

 

[MurphyVol]

Yep. But we didn't even give Mullen a whiff because Haslam and Currie put all their chips in on Schiano. Currie at least did make an effort to get Leach before the rug was pulled from under him. And I would love to had Miles come in for a few years to build up the team for a younger coach.

I'm not saying Fahr JP, but Miles with an all star staff would have been an interesting approach. Les strikes me as someone who would be ok with a stud OC/DC making they same type $ as he did.

 

[Behr]

It depends what you mean by "pretty quick," but no. After three seasons, Butch was still looking like a guy who could get us to the championship level. Most Tennessee fans, including the vast majority of the folks on this board, were mostly happy with the 2015 season. Upset we didn't win even more that year (the close losses to Oklahoma and Florida stood out), but still generally pleased with the progress.

Let's don't COMPLETELY reinvent the past now that we know it was a house of cards being built.

I'm still pissed about that Florida game. I could have killed him that night. The Okie game was frustrating too, but I wasn't expecting to win that one anyway, so I got over it in an hour or so.

 

[Jonsson]

How many proven coaches did we even reach out to? How many did we offer “serious about winning money” to? 8-10 million? People want to say no coach wanted to come here. I say we weren’t serious about getting a big big time coach. Currie had Schiano as his guy from day one, that’s widely known.

This is the main issue... Tennessee has everything they need to attract a top-notch coach but for w.e reason simply don't want to pay the price..

The administration simply doesn't care about winning. If they can fill the stadium that's all that matters.. Tennessee will always try and hit lightning in a bottle I don't believe Tennessee will ever pay up for a proven guy

 

[Samuellbronkowitz]

I'm still pissed about that Florida game. I could have killed him that night. The Okie game was frustrating too, but I wasn't expecting to win that one anyway, so I got over it in an hour or so.

I also could have killed Butch after the 2014 and 2017 games.

 

[wmcovol]

I think both Dooley and Jones were wore out before they started their last seasons. Both had big buyouts and they knew they didn’t need the pressure. If anything we fired both a year too late.