The argument being made

#26
#26
It's not just that we've lost three close games. It's the way we lost them. We were comfortable ahead in all three--and yet in all three collapsed in the fourth quarter, and in two of the three really got killed in the second half. You can't have a team that looks competent or better in one half and incompetent or lousy in the meaningful half--and the second half is always the meaningful one.

We've had some bad luck with injuries/suspensions--which is sort of the UT way nowadays--see women's basketball, soccer, too. We lost our leader on defense--Maggitt, and lost our best WR and one of our best DBs. Everybody loses key players, so that's not really not an excuse--and yet those losses have clearly hurt this team.

Some of the coaching issues seem real. The offensive scheme seems iffy--just hasn't worked well enough. It's like we're trying mostly to play power football with Hurd within a spread/read-option scheme. Key first down play late in the Arky game and we're running Hurd up the middle with only our basic 5 offensive linemen--no blocking tight end, no H-back; the play gets blown up and we lose three yards. That spelled our doom. The passing game has looked disjointed for three straight years. We run Dobbs excessively against florida and then hardly at all against arky. I get the match-up thing--but you've got to keep teams off-balance. You cannot almost completely abandon the pass in a game because the opponent has good defense backs. The DBs then just creep up and slam your backs. Opponents need to be challenged. It's just more of the various BS that has afflicted this program for more than a decade. It will end at some time, but who knows when.
 
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#27
#27
We have the dumbest fan base in the country. everybody saying fire butch and get another coach will look like pure idiots in a year or two.
 
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#28
#28
Jdh13579 said:
We have the dumbest fan base in the country. everybody saying fire butch and get another coach will look like pure idiots in a year or two.
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Man I hope so. I don't have your level of confidence but I hope you're right.
 
#30
#30
ALLVOL 4LIFE said:
There has been progress made, no doubt, but how could the program been in much worse shape? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start over as much as anyone.

The issue I have is that this staff has yet to prove they can coach. The lack of in game adjustments and player development is evident. Anyone that truly believes they are doing the best they can at this point is lying to themselves. There is a reason why we have yet to beat a good program they can't run with the big dogs. I hope they wise up and change, I really do.

But the 3 losses we have would have been wins if just a little more coaching took place.
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Just to play devil's advocate, isn't the fact we had a chance to win this game somewhat evidence they can coach? Yes, mistakes were made in the game that could have sealed the victory, but we could and should have won. To me, that doesn't mean they can't coach. They just need to fine tune in game adjustments and some decisions.
 
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#31
#31
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
Butch has improved the talent level by leaps and bounds. That's a credit to him as well as an indictment. The talent is now in place to judge him on reults. So far he's fallen flat on his face.

At the end of the day, even if he doesn't work out, the program is still better off because of his tenure here.
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I agree with all of that. The only thing I would add. If he continues to prove he can't coach and the development (in some positions) continues to lack. What he leaves will be determined by how long he is here. I wouldn't expect top classes in the next 2 if he makes it to 2016. The next guy will still have at least a 1 class gap.

I imagine this class is already in a wait and see mode.
 
#32
#32
People were saying similar things when Dooley almost beat LSU. Jones is light years better than Dooley in terms of recruiting and managing basic day to day operations. But Dooley, at times, had better staff than Butch. I'd take almost any offensive staff under Dooley over Butch's. Plus, Dooley should never be the measuring stick for whether a coach is successful or not.
 
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#33
#33
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The defense can absolutely be blamed for not being able to stop a 4th and long on 5 different occasions against Florida.
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True. However, how many times has the defense given us the chance to win games and the offense lays a turd? In every loss this year the defense has given the offense a chance to put away games but they have failed to do so. I know the defense is bad but in all honesty, I think they are getting sick and tired of the ineptitude of our second half offense.
 
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#34
#34
Roustabout said:
People were saying similar things when Dooley almost beat LSU. Jones is light years better than Dooley in terms of recruiting and managing basic day to day operations. But Dooley, at times, had better staff than Butch. I'd take almost any offensive staff under Dooley over Butch's. Plus, Dooley should never be the measuring stick for whether a coach is successful or not.
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This all day everyday. Saying that a coach is better than Dooley is like saying a human turd is better than a dog turd.
 
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#35
#35
Jdh13579 said:
We have the dumbest fan base in the country. everybody saying fire butch and get another coach will look like pure idiots in a year or two.
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No its just that some of us are smart enough to see the inevitable. I've watched enough football over the years to know what good coaching looks like! Am I a coach? No. I'm also not a professional chef but I do know what tastes good and what tastes like crap.
 
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#36
#36
chuck0303 said:
Oh I agree the defense has multiple, in a row, chances to win the game I'm just saying how can you blame them not being tired after having been out there most of the game. By the same token, where's the coaching that would have made the difference? Any one of those 4th down stops would have made the difference in a W or L, but those weren't the only opportunities we had to win the game.
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The defensive woes are absolutely a coaching problem. The coaches aren't putting them in a position to succeed. Why in the world would you not pressure a freshman QB on 4th and 14 with the game on the line?
 
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#37
#37
66volfan said:
Man I hope so. I don't have your level of confidence but I hope you're right.
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Firing coaches ruins stability and causes these long years of rebuilding. Butch is stock-pilling recruits and building our depth back up. I hate hearing the process and we're young comments like everybody but it's the truth. We have huge big time qbs coming in and big time recruits coming. Recruits have zero reason to consider coming here let alone actually coming here. Butch is the reason they are coming. He came here when we were at our lowest point and has worked his ass off getting big name guys to come here and he's brought back stability and all the vol family that hasn't been around in years. He's bringing the tradition back and making us a national brand again. Sure we've lost a couple bad games and had iffy coaching calls but the guy has pride in being here and wants us to win worse than anybody. I'm just as impatient as any vol fan here but give this man another couple years to build stability and depth and give these young guys a year or two in a college workout and program and we'll be back to winning. He's honestly done everything he can do to this point but win games. That will come in time. Not any coach in the world wanted to come here and take over this ship that had sunk but he did and he's working his ass off to bring us back from the dead. Butch seems like he's loyal to Knoxville and loyal to this program. He's gotten fulmer back involved and all the greats coming back to help us get back to our glory days. To take us from where he inherited us is going to take longer than 3 years and it should. This is when we should have his back and be loyal to him cause he's giving his all for Tennessee. Our fan base isn't loyal anymore and I wish we were. Firing butch and losing recruits and losing the players that are already here does nothing more than setting us back 5-7 more years. Butch deserves a lot better than us turning our back on him because in year 3 times got hard and we ran into bad luck. That's pretty lame as a fan base.
 
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#38
#38
Brave Volunteer said:
No its just that some of us are smart enough to see the inevitable. I've watched enough football over the years to know what good coaching looks like! Am I a coach? No. I'm also not a professional chef but I do know what tastes good and what tastes like crap.
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If you know football you'd understand the worst thing for a program is to fire coaches and lose stability. Hence why we're still in this position.
 
#39
#39
BigOrangeTrain said:
True. However, how many times has the defense given us the chance to win games and the offense lays a turd? In every loss this year the defense has given the offense a chance to put away games but they have failed to do so. I know the defense is bad but in all honesty, I think they are getting sick and tired of the ineptitude of our second half offense.
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Did you catch the Locker room Sunday?
Fred White did an entire rant on "do your job".
It was actually good imo.
They had covered coaching issues but had moved on to player mistakes.
He really started about receivers dropping passes but also talked about D,. He made a good point about how our defensive players looked like they were all waiting on "the other guy" to make the tackle.
 
#40
#40
Jdh13579 said:
If you know football you'd understand the worst thing for a program is to fire coaches and lose stability. Hence why we're still in this position.
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Your argument only holds weight when you replace the fired coach with just a mid level talented coach.

On the other hand, when you replace a losing coach with a bug time, proven winner, it more often than not works out great.

When you're making over $3 million a year, you're being paid to produce wins. Butch just isnt.
 
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#41
#41
Jdh13579 said:
If you know football you'd understand the worst thing for a program is to fire coaches and lose stability. Hence why we're still in this position.
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Yeah its really killing Michigan and Florida right now. Firing coaches doesn't ruin stability. Hiring the wrong replacements kills stability.
 
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#42
#42
I would have thought coaching with "inferior
Talent" would be the best situation to demonstrate your quality.
 
#43
#43
Brave Volunteer said:
Yeah its really killing Michigan and Florida right now. Firing coaches doesn't ruin stability. Hiring the wrong replacements kills stability.
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I can agree.
One concern of mine, why do we think the AD will make a better hire?


I have asked this to a few posters but all they do is fire back about "that's no reason". Which gets them likes but I still have never received an answer.
So if anyone posting would like to give me an answer, skip the stupid insults please but I want to feel better about the next time we have a search.
What has happened to make anyone think that we are going for broke and make "the" hire?
 
#44
#44
chargervol said:
I can agree.
One concern of mine, why do we think the AD will make a better hire?


I have asked this to a few posters but all they do is fire back about "that's no reason". Which gets them likes but I still have never received an answer.
So if anyone posting would like to give me an answer, skip the stupid insults please but I want to feel better about the next time we have a search.
What has happened to make anyone think that we are going for broke and make "the" hire?
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Oh I Agee completely! Wholesale changes need to be made starting at the top. Replace Cheek and Hart with real leadership and rest will take care of itself.
 
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#45
#45
chargervol said:
I can agree.
One concern of mine, why do we think the AD will make a better hire?
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Good point and unfortunately, there is no definitive answer. It comes down to who do you trust more, the AD or the coaches? Hart could be on his way out,too, which only further complicates the situation.
 
#46
#46
jps2194 said:
Just to play devil's advocate, isn't the fact we had a chance to win this game somewhat evidence they can coach? Yes, mistakes were made in the game that could have sealed the victory, but we could and should have won. To me, that doesn't mean they can't coach. They just need to fine tune in game adjustments and some decisions.
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The fact we had a chance only proved our talent is better than it has been. They can't fine tune their adjustments, they don't make any, and that's the exact reason why we have lost the 3 games we have. I know the players could have made another play or 2 here and there or not missed the field goal.
But if you lead 17-3 at the half and only manage 3 points in the 2nd half, that's a problem! Why did that happen? We did the exact same thing in the 2nd half that we did in the first half, and a good coaching staff exploited it.
No different against Fla. let's not even discuss him not going for 2 up by 12 in the 4th quarter (which he still believes he made the right call on...NO!). We had our way running on them until they cut it to 6 and crowded the box and we ran 3 plays right into the middle and lost yardage. 1 completed pass for a first down and we probably win.

But our staff has still yet to develop a QB that has been here for 3 years. So No...they can't coach.
 
#47
#47
Great progress I see as a fan=====Special teams
Running Backs
about the same---------------OL,DL.LB
Regressed-------------------OB,Secondary
 
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#48
#48
Jdh13579 said:
If you know football you'd understand the worst thing for a program is to fire coaches and lose stability. Hence why we're still in this position.
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If you knew anything about football you would know that keeping a coach simply for stability is as much a program killer as anything. Coaches have to coach. Wins have to materialize, they have to matter. CBJ can recruit, no doubt, and he can build depth, but if he can't coach on game day, what's the point? If the wins don't come he will reach a plateau, a ceiling if you will, and recruiting will start declining along with every aspect of the program. The program suffers and the rebuild job starts all over. Only from a much worse place. Make the change when the signs are evident. Don't and watch the program continue to slide. (And no, I'm saying fire CBJ today)

He has to prove he can win.
 
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#49
#49
ALLVOL 4LIFE said:
The fact we had a chance only proved our talent is better than it has been. They can't fine tune their adjustments, they don't make any, and that's the exact reason why we have lost the 3 games we have. I know the players could have made another play or 2 here and there or not missed the field goal.
But if you lead 17-3 at the half and only manage 3 points in the 2nd half, that's a problem! Why did that happen? We did the exact same thing in the 2nd half that we did in the first half, and a good coaching staff exploited it.
No different against Fla. let's not even discuss him not going for 2 up by 12 in the 4th quarter (which he still believes he made the right call on...NO!). We had our way running on them until they cut it to 6 and crowded the box and we ran 3 plays right into the middle and lost yardage. 1 completed pass for a first down and we probably win.

But our staff has still yet to develop a QB that has been here for 3 years. So No...they can't coach.
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Very simplistic thinking, but okay.
 
#50
#50
jps2194 said:
Very simplistic thinking, but okay.
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I could break down all 5 games, but this is so much more fun. In all seriousness, I hope they turn it around and we become what we should be. I just don't see it from them though.
 
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