That's racist!

#19,377
#19,377
TNVOLNAVY said:
Another new word to learn “Blackwashing”

Netflix's 'Queen Cleopatra' Star Adele James Dismisses Egyptian Complaints About Docuseries' Race-Swapping: "Blackwashing Isn't A Thing"

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You can do an “artistic re-imagining” with a black Cleopatra.
You cannot do a “docuseries” with a black Cleopatra.

IF Cleopatra’s mother was “native Egyptian”, she likely looked like this -

1684109915448.png

I don’t know exactly what you get when you combine that with Macedonian Greek - but it certainly wouldn’t be a “black Cleopatra”.
 
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#19,378
#19,378
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#19,379
#19,379
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Go back and watch the video I posted on "The Blameless Ethiopians" in its entirety. According to the Ancient Greeks, Africans founded cities in places as far away as Persia. This wasn't mentioned in the video but Herodutus also famously mentioned how a "black skin wooly hair" people referred to as the Colchians had a colony in what is today Turkey. They told Herodutus they were originally from Egypt but that they got shipwrecked in Turkey and decided to build a colony there.

Basically by the unanimous testimony of ancient scholars Sub-Saharan Africans were colonizing and discovering major cities throughout Asia and Europe. It's why for example in the Illiad, Homer has an Ethiopian King named Memnon fighting with the Greeks in the battle at Troy. It's also why mythological characters like Andromeda and Casiopeia were Ethiopians in Greek mythology.

The African was such a respected and venerated figure at that time that the Ancient Greeks would make them central figures in their myths.
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These are your words.

The Iliad and Greek Mythology.
 
#19,380
#19,380
85SugarVol said:
You can do an “artistic re-imagining” with a black Cleopatra.
You cannot do a “docuseries” with a black Cleopatra.

IF Cleopatra’s mother was “native Egyptian”, she likely looked like this -

View attachment 551511

I don’t know exactly what you get when you combine that with Macedonian Greek - but it certainly wouldn’t be a “black Cleopatra”.
Click to expand...

That's an Arab woman. The Arabs invaded Egypt in the 7th century AD. Cleopatra died in the 1st century BC. That means that Arabs first came to Egypt over 700 years after Cleopatra died. This would be like me saying Pocahontas was white because most women in America in 2023 are white. The modern American is not the same as the Ancient American. Similarly, modern Egyptians are not the same people as the Ancient Egyptians. The Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs all invaded and occupied Egypt over the last 2000 years. Just as Europeans have occupied America for the last 500 years.
 
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#19,381
#19,381
85SugarVol said:
These are your words.

The Iliad and Greek Mythology.
Click to expand...

I mentioned the Illiad because it was written in the 8th century BC and includes the earliest mentions of black people by the Ancient Greeks. That's why it's noteworthy. Because of its age. But those aren't the only mentions of Africans by the Ancient Greeks. I have provided you with links to the works of Ancient Greek historians like Herodutus and Diodorus Siculus both of whom wrote extensively about their travels in Africa.

Don't blame me for your ignorance. Anyone who is well read on history knows the Ancient Greeks talked extensively about Ethiopians aka Africans not just in the Illiad and mythology.
 
#19,383
#19,383
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
That's an Arab woman. The Arabs invaded Egypt in the 7th century AD. Cleopatra died in the 1st century BC. That means that Arabs first came to Egypt over 700 years after Cleopatra died. This would be like me saying Pocahontas was white because most women in America in 2023 are white. The modern American is not the same as the Ancient American. Similarly, modern Egyptians are not the same people as the Ancient Egyptians. The Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs all invaded and occupied Egypt over the last 2000 years. Just as Europeans have occupied America for the last 500 years.
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No. I’m not talking about the Arab conquest of North Africa.

I’m talking about genomic sequencing of ancient Egyptian DNA. 80+ mummified remains from the New Kingdom up through the Romans - which would include Cleopatra’s time.

Those ancient Egyptians shared 70% of their genetic markers with another ancient peoples from a land in modern day Israel & Jordan.
 
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#19,385
#19,385
85SugarVol said:
No. I’m not talking about the Arab conquest of North Africa.

I’m talking about genomic sequencing of ancient Egyptian DNA. 80+ mummified remains from the New Kingdom up through the Romans - which would include Cleopatra’s time.

Those ancient Egyptians shared 70% of their genetic markers with another ancient peoples from a land in modern day Israel & Jordan.
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DNA studies are notoriously contradictory. Here's another DNA study which says the Ancient Egyptians were most related to Central Africans from the Great Lakes region. Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans - DNA

The thing about DNA is it doesn't tell you about phenotype. For example there are a lot of West and Central Africans with the European genetic marker R1b.

But these West and Central Africans look indistinguishable from their neighbors who have exclusively African DNA. Just because you see non-African DNA in an African population doesn't necessarily mean their phenotype was non-African.
 
#19,386
#19,386
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
DNA studies are notoriously contradictory. Here's another DNA study which says the Ancient Egyptians were most related to Central Africans from the Great Lakes region. Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans - DNA

The thing about DNA is it doesn't tell you about phenotype. For example there are a lot of West and Central Africans with the European genetic marker R1b.

But these West and Central Africans look indistinguishable from their neighbors who have exclusively African DNA. Just because you see non-African DNA in an African population doesn't necessarily mean their phenotype was non-African.
Click to expand...

The study I’m referencing is the most recent - from 2023.

It’s not just some non-African DNA. It’s 70% of the genetic markers, not 1 or 2.

And DNA phenotyping is very real. Have you not heard of it?
 
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#19,387
#19,387
85SugarVol said:
The study I’m referencing is the most recent - from 2023.

It’s not just some non-African DNA. It’s 70% of the genetic markers, not 1 or 2.

And DNA phenotyping is very real. Have you not heard of it?
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The year the study comes out is irrelevant. The mummies being tested is what matters. The study I cited tested tested mummies from the ruling class of 18th dynasty (King Tut's family). King Tut's family were Pharoahs and royalty of native Egyptian origin. So their mummies are more significant in telling us about who the Ancient Egyptians were most related to than say remains from a later period when foreign powers ruled Egypt. Or remains that aren't from royalty.

What were the mummies in the study you are citing tested? Were they royalty? And from what time period? Because as you know Ancient Egypt was ruled by different peoples at different times. The study I cited is from a time of native Egyptian rule and it was mummies from the royalty. So the fact King Tut's family showed close genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans means more when trying to determine the phenotype of the Ancient Egyptians than looking at mummies from eras when foreign nations ruled Egypt.
 
#19,388
#19,388
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
The year the study comes out is irrelevant. The mummies being tested is what matters. The study I cited tested tested mummies from the ruling class of 18th dynasty (King Tut's family). King Tut's family were Pharoahs and royalty of native Egyptian origin. So their mummies are more significant in telling us about who the Ancient Egyptians were most related to than say remains from a later period when foreign powers ruled Egypt. Or remains that aren't from royalty.

What were the mummies in the study you are citing tested? Were they royalty? And from what time period? Because as you know Ancient Egypt was ruled by different peoples at different times. The study I cited is from a time of native Egyptian rule and it was mummies from the royalty. So the fact King Tut's family showed close genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans means more when trying to determine the phenotype of the Ancient Egyptians than looking at mummies from eras when foreign nations ruled Egypt.
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You realize DNA technology advances rapidly every year right? The year the study comes out is 100% relevant.

I already told you what they sequenced, 80+ mummified remains from the New Kingdom up through the Roman. 1500 BC thru 500 AD.

Native Egyptians were not ruling during the time of Cleopatra. Ptolemaic period. Remember?
 
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#19,389
#19,389
85SugarVol said:
You realize DNA technology advances rapidly every year right? The year the study comes out is 100% relevant.

I already told you what they sequenced, 80+ mummified remains from the New Kingdom up through the Roman. 1500 BC thru 500 AD.

Native Egyptians were not ruling during the time of Cleopatra. Ptolemaic period. Remember?
Click to expand...

Ancient Egypt much like the United States today was the global superpower of its time. So it had lots of different people living there (especially in Lower Egypt aka Northern Egypt). If I sampled remains from a cemetery in Chinatown and said the United States was mostly populated and ruled by Chinese people how much sense would that make? The thing about these DNA studies in Ancient Egypt is the fact they test different regions at different times and then we have agenda driven individuals like yourself cherry picking studies to prove a faulty point.

If we want to know what groups the Ancient Egyptians most closely related to then we need to test mummies from Upper Egypt aka Southern Egypt because those regions were free of the migrations from Western Asia. Upper Egypt was also where the Ancient Egyptian royalty mainly came from as well as where Ancient Egyptian culture originated. We would also need to test mummies from the royalty because that would tell us more about the population as a whole than a random individual.

If you're actually serious about learning who the Ancient Egyptians were then this is a great video that synthesizes all the linguistic, archeology, and genetic history of Ancient Egypt to paint a pretty good picture on who the Ancient Egyptians were.

But knowing you I'm sure you have no interest in the truth but are instead here to advance an agenda so I expect you'll completely ignore this great video with a treasure trove of scientific backing.
 
#19,390
#19,390
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Ancient Egypt much like the United States today was the global superpower of its time. So it had lots of different people living there (especially in Lower Egypt aka Northern Egypt). If I sampled remains from a cemetery in Chinatown and said the United States was mostly populated and ruled by Chinese people how much sense would that make? The thing about these DNA studies in Ancient Egypt is the fact they test different regions at different times and then we have agenda driven individuals like yourself cherry picking studies to prove a faulty point.

If we want to know what groups the Ancient Egyptians most closely related to then we need to test mummies from Upper Egypt aka Southern Egypt because those regions were free of the migrations from Western Asia. Upper Egypt was also where the Ancient Egyptian royalty mainly came from as well as where Ancient Egyptian culture originated. We would also need to test mummies from the royalty because that would tell us more about the population as a whole than a random individual.

If you're actually serious about learning who the Ancient Egyptians were then this is a great video that synthesizes all the linguistic, archeology, and genetic history of Ancient Egypt to paint a pretty good picture on who the Ancient Egyptians were.

But knowing you I'm sure you have no interest in the truth but are instead here to advance an agenda so I expect you'll completely ignore this great video with a treasure trove of scientific backing.
Click to expand...

Cherry picking studies? The study I’m referencing has been widely reported and affirmed.

You’re in here posting YouTube videos and the Iliad.
And the DNA study you referenced from 15 years ago uses outdated technology and is subject to contamination bias - that study is highly questioned at this point.
 
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#19,391
#19,391
85SugarVol said:
Cherry picking studies? The study I’m referencing has been widely reported and affirmed.

You’re in here posting YouTube videos and the Iliad.
And the DNA study you referenced from 15 years ago uses outdated technology and is subject to contamination bias - that study is highly questioned at this point.
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The guy using the Iliad as his initial point about Cleopatra being black says you are pushing an agenda 85. Quit your bias.
 
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#19,393
#19,393
85SugarVol said:
Cherry picking studies? The study I’m referencing has been widely reported and affirmed.
Click to expand...

One study means less than several dozen. The youtube video I linked included several DNA studies as well as linguistic and migratory studies that showed a clear connection between the Ancient Egyptians and Sub-Saharan Africans. But like I said you're not here to actually learn anything so I doubt you watched it in its entirety. You're here to push an agenda.

Look you can believe what you want. But here's what you can't deny. According to EVERY ancient source from the Ancient Greeks to the Ancient Romans to the Holy Bible, the people of Ancient Egypt were considered black. Now that's not to say there weren't non-blacks in Egypt throughout its history. But the non-blacks were not the original population and they were not the ruling class. The ruling class was black and the ancestral population was also black.

If you're a Christian I would suggest you read your Bible again. Ancient Egypt (called Mizraim in the Bible) was the younger brother of Nubia (called Cush in the Bible) as both were sons of Ham (who was in turn one of the 3 sons of Noah). Ham is commonly thought of in biblical tradition as the father of the black race. And considering Nubia was considered Egypt's sibling then it stands to reason both must have been the same race. If the Nubians were black then obviously the Egyptians were also black.
 
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#19,394
#19,394
utvols88 said:
The guy using the Iliad as his initial point about Cleopatra being black says you are pushing an agenda 85. Quit your bias.
Click to expand...

Actually the Iliad was to show how much reverence the Ancient Greeks had for black Africans. Because in the Illiad, Zeus and the other Gods would regularly travel to Ethiopia (aka Sub-Saharan Africa) to feast. I cited it because its the earliest recorded mention of black people by the Ancient Greeks. The Iliad was written in the 8th century BC by the way.

For the record I never said Cleopatra was definitively black. I said it was possible she was at least partially black. Her father was Greek but her mother is unknown. In Ancient times when men conquered other lands they generally didn't bring their women with them. They generally married into the local populations. The Greeks were fond of Africans so it's very likely Cleopatra's mom was a native Egyptian. And since every ancient source from that time said the Ancient Egyptians were black, it's very likely Cleopatra was half black. The actress playing Cleopatra in this Netflix documentary is herself half-black so I argued that she was actually a historically accurate representation of the real Cleopatra.
 
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#19,395
#19,395
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Actually the Iliad was to show how much reverence the Ancient Greeks had for black Africans. Because in the Illiad, Zeus and the other Gods would regularly travel to Ethiopia (aka Sub-Saharan Africa) to feast. I cited it because its the earliest recorded mention of black people by the Ancient Greeks. The Iliad was written in the 8th century BC by the way.

For the record I never said Cleopatra was definitively black. I said it was possible she was at least partially black. Her father was Greek but her mother is unknown. In Ancient times when men conquered other lands they generally didn't bring their women with them. They generally married into the local populations. The Greeks were fond of Africans so it's very likely Cleopatra's mom was a native Egyptian. And since every ancient source from that time said the Ancient Egyptians were black, it's very likely Cleopatra was half black. The actress playing Cleopatra in this Netflix documentary is herself half-black so I argued that she was actually a historically accurate representation of the real Cleopatra.
Click to expand...
The Ptolemaic dynasty, like many dynasties of the past, was fond of inbreeding. It's more likely Cleopatra's mother was related to her father than it is he married into the local population. It's actually more unlikely that her mother was a native Egyptian.
 
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#19,396
#19,396
Weezer said:
The Ptolemaic dynasty, like many dynasties of the past, was fond of inbreeding. It's more likely Cleopatra's mother was related to her father than it is he married into the local population. It's actually more unlikely that her mother was a native Egyptian.
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Fine. But the initial Greeks that conquered Egypt were unlikely to have brought their own women so they most likely married into the native population thus making those initial Ptolemaic rulers mixed race. So even if later generations only mixed among themselves they still would've carried significant African ancestry thus making a mixed race looking Cleopatra likely.

Look at Latin America. The Spanish when they conquered those lands didn't bring their women with them. They married the local population creating the modern mezito race we see dominating Latin America. In East Africa, Arabs ruled the nation of Zanzibar. The Arabs in East Africa didn't bring their own women with them so they married into the local populations. This is why if you look up pictures of the Arab rulers of Zanzibar you will they look like black Africans.

If there's one thing no man can deny is that as men we will have sex with any race of women. Especially men who just engaged in years of war in a foreign land. Also this was a time before the idea of White Supremacy and Black Inferiority. The Ancient Greeks had immense respect for the black African. So it makes it unlikely that they would not claim the children from these mixed race relationships like white Americans did in the 18th and 19th century when it came to mixed race children that resulted from the white slave master sleeping with his black female slaves (i.e. President Thomas Jefferson).
 
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#19,397
#19,397
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
One study means less than several dozen. The youtube video I linked included several DNA studies as well as linguistic and migratory studies that showed a clear connection between the Ancient Egyptians and Sub-Saharan Africans. But like I said you're not here to actually learn anything so I doubt you watched it in its entirety. You're here to push an agenda.

Look you can believe what you want. But here's what you can't deny. According to EVERY ancient source from the Ancient Greeks to the Ancient Romans to the Holy Bible, the people of Ancient Egypt were considered black. Now that's not to say there weren't non-blacks in Egypt throughout its history. But the non-blacks were not the original population and they were not the ruling class. The ruling class was black and the ancestral population was also black.

If you're a Christian I would suggest you read your Bible again. Ancient Egypt (called Mizraim in the Bible) was the younger brother of Nubia (called Cush in the Bible) as both were sons of Ham (who was in turn one of the 3 sons of Noah). Ham is commonly thought of in biblical tradition as the father of the black race. And considering Nubia was considered Egypt's sibling then it stands to reason both must have been the same race. If the Nubians were black then obviously the Egyptians were also black.
Click to expand...
I’m certainly not interested in your linguistic or migratory studies. Not when there is actual DNA evidence using new techniques.

And there is DNA evidence using new and better techniques.

And they all point to the same place - Israel & Jordan.

And lololol with your continued harping on the Iliad, Greek mythology, and now the Bible. Get serious.
 
#19,398
#19,398
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Fine. But the initial Greeks that conquered Egypt were unlikely to have brought their own women so they most likely married into the native population thus making those initial Ptolemaic rulers mixed race. So even if later generations only mixed among themselves they still would've carried significant African ancestry thus making a mixed race looking Cleopatra likely.

Look at Latin America. The Spanish when they conquered those lands didn't bring their women with them. They married the local population creating the modern mezito race we see dominating Latin America. In East Africa, Arabs ruled the nation of Zanzibar. The Arabs in East Africa didn't bring their own women with them so they married into the local populations. This is why if you look up pictures of the Arab rulers of Zanzibar you will they look like black Africans.

If there's one thing no man can deny is that as men we will have sex with any race of women. Especially men who just engaged in years of war in a foreign land. Also this was a time before the idea of White Supremacy and Black Inferiority. The Ancient Greeks had immense respect for the black African. So it makes it unlikely that they would not claim the children from these mixed race relationships like white Americans did in the 18th and 19th century when it came to mixed race children that resulted from the white slave master sleeping with his black female slaves (i.e. President Thomas Jefferson).
Click to expand...

Read up on the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy I was a general for Alexander the Great. He brought Greek women with him. That's not to say he didn't intermingle with the population. But like most royalty, bastards would not have been recognized. Has nothing to do with them being mixed race, and a lot to do with them being illegitimate.
 
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#19,399
#19,399
85SugarVol said:
No. I’m not talking about the Arab conquest of North Africa.

I’m talking about genomic sequencing of ancient Egyptian DNA. 80+ mummified remains from the New Kingdom up through the Romans - which would include Cleopatra’s time.

Those ancient Egyptians shared 70% of their genetic markers with another ancient peoples from a land in modern day Israel & Jordan.
Click to expand...

Surely you mean the Black Hebrew Israelites of yore? If not...c'mon man, check the tape!
 
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