Tennessee under NCAA investigation over use of recruiting hostesses

[DC Vol]

The amazing thing about all of this is that people still think Lane Kiffin is a bumbling idiot.

 

[All Vol!]

Gone are the days of The Godfather owning journalists to print whatever it is they need spun out toward the masses. The real scandal will come to light of day as the NYTimes journalist is exposed, the person associated with the institution who collaborated with him becomes exposed, and the NCAA leaker is exposed. The writing that has occurred by the NYTimes has libeled, not only one particular "hostess" but all hostesses. Were I the father of any of these young ladies, my attorney would have a suit filed against the NYTimes, the NCAA, and anyone associated with bringing the libel of my daughter forward. All the tears and snot that would ensue from Manhattan would be of no help to them until the NCAA leaker was known and that individual and organization was on the losing end of a 9 figure lawsuit. It's time somebody stood up for these young ladies, they have been seriously libeled and I ask their fathers to do it immediately.

I'm not sure I buy that this is a young ladies' honor and "libeled" thing. Despite "hostessing" being apparently common practice at other major universities, it would not diminish the responsibility of those involved at UT if there is planning and organization behind any violations these girls may have committed or played a part in. Because the whole story is not known and may never be, it's only possible to make common sense inferences at this point, but in my mind, there are a few worth venturing.

Here's what we know...

These girls, who have been affiliated with the University of Tennessee via the Orange Pride "hostessing" program, were at this game in South Carolina and holding signs that encouraged these players to attend and play football at UT. It is not known if there was further interaction between the girls and players before or after the game, although one of the players being recruited, while describing the events surrounding the game, described them as "real nice" and "real cool", which implies direct interaction, although this could have been a reference to having met them previously on the UT campus. These players were being actively recruited by the university and had already made visits to the campus, where it is reported they had verbal interaction with one or more of these same girls as part of their official campus visit. This summarizes the related articles that have been linked in this forum and seems to serve as the basis for speculation that recruiting violations may have occurred where these players are concerned.

Here are my relevant common-sense inferences...

It seems unlikely that, as some have suggested, they travelled to this game in South Carolina only because they liked the players or were perhaps attracted to one or more of them or just for the fun of going to watch some good players play football. If any of these were true, why the signs? And even if they were true and there had been no signs, it still would have been at least irresponsible, holding positions in a university program directly involved in the recruiting process and knowing as they must have, that such visits could and would cast a cloud of impropriety over efforts to recruit these players. I believe they surely must personally have known these were reckless choices, whether they attended the game of their own volition, or were dispatched there by a party or parties within the football program or university. I believe they bare some responsibility either way.

Also, it occurs to me that the very name, "hostesses", (although no longer officially referred to as such) asserts that this is a program exclusive to females, and commonly very attractive ones, and is almost certainly a strategic move designed to direct implicit sex appeal at prospective recruits...to lure them in ways a pretty girl can do better than anyone. I think it is likely also that, in most cases, these girls understand that this is their role in the recruiting process and play the part as well as they can.

So the direct point I am making is that I believe these girls get involved with Orange Pride with full knowledge of their role as essentially temptresses, and probably in many cases stand to secure some personal gain, whatever that may be, for their efforts - more than the satisfaction of facilitating the recruiting of good football players. That said, I stop short of heaping all this on the backs of every member of Orange Pride or assuming this is true in every case, but in the case of the girls in question, I don't think they need their fathers to rush to their defense, I think they need to make better choices.

Finally, I hope all this will conclude in a fair manner and that UT will go forward as an improving football program. I love Tennessee sports..always have, always will.

 

[Tidal Surge]

Gone are the days of The Godfather owning journalists to print whatever it is they need spun out toward the masses. The real scandal will come to light of day as the NYTimes journalist is exposed, the person associated with the institution who collaborated with him becomes exposed, and the NCAA leaker is exposed. The writing that has occurred by the NYTimes has libeled, not only one particular "hostess" but all hostesses. Were I the father of any of these young ladies, my attorney would have a suit filed against the NYTimes, the NCAA, and anyone associated with bringing the libel of my daughter forward. All the tears and snot that would ensue from Manhattan would be of no help to them until the NCAA leaker was known and that individual and organization was on the losing end of a 9 figure lawsuit. It's time somebody stood up for these young ladies, they have been seriously libeled and I ask their fathers to do it immediately.

After reading your post, I went and carefully re-read the NYT article. I'm no lawyer, but I see no basis at all for any slander/libel suit. Perhaps there are some lawyers who post here that could give you a better assessement of that.

 

[ChattanoogaVols]

I'm not sure I buy that this is a young ladies' honor and "libeled" thing. Despite "hostessing" being apparently common practice at other major universities, it would not diminish the responsibility of those involved at UT if there is planning and organization behind any violations these girls may have committed or played a part in. Because the whole story is not known and may never be, it's only possible to make common sense inferences at this point, but in my mind, there are a few worth venturing.

Here's what we know...

These girls, who have been affiliated with the University of Tennessee via the Orange Pride "hostessing" program, were at this game in South Carolina and holding signs that encouraged these players to attend and play football at UT. It is not known if there was further interaction between the girls and players before or after the game, although one of the players being recruited, while describing the events surrounding the game, described them as "real nice" and "real cool", which implies direct interaction, although this could have been a reference to having met them previously on the UT campus. These players were being actively recruited by the university and had already made visits to the campus, where it is reported they had verbal interaction with one or more of these same girls as part of their official campus visit. This summarizes the related articles that have been linked in this forum and seems to serve as the basis for speculation that recruiting violations may have occurred where these players are concerned.

Here are my relevant common-sense inferences...

It seems unlikely that, as some have suggested, they travelled to this game in South Carolina only because they liked the players or were perhaps attracted to one or more of them or just for the fun of going to watch some good players play football. If any of these were true, why the signs? And even if they were true and there had been no signs, it still would have been at least irresponsible, holding positions in a university program directly involved in the recruiting process and knowing as they must have, that such visits could and would cast a cloud of impropriety over efforts to recruit these players. I believe they surely must personally have known these were reckless choices, whether they attended the game of their own volition, or were dispatched there by a party or parties within the football program or university. I believe they bare some responsibility either way.

Also, it occurs to me that the very name, "hostesses", (although no longer officially referred to as such) asserts that this is a program exclusive to females, and commonly very attractive ones, and is almost certainly a strategic move designed to direct implicit sex appeal at prospective recruits...to lure them in ways a pretty girl can do better than anyone. I think it is likely also that, in most cases, these girls understand that this is their role in the recruiting process and play the part as well as they can.

So the direct point I am making is that I believe these girls get involved with Orange Pride with full knowledge of their role as essentially temptresses, and probably in many cases stand to secure some personal gain, whatever that may be, for their efforts - more than the satisfaction of facilitating the recruiting of good football players. That said, I stop short of heaping all this on the backs of every member of Orange Pride or assuming this is true in every case, but in the case of the girls in question, I don't think they need their fathers to rush to their defense, I think they need to make better choices.

Finally, I hope all this will conclude in a fair manner and that UT will go forward as an improving football program. I love Tennessee sports..always have, always will.

1.) If they honestly did have a "crush" on the player(s), obviously they would want them to go to the same college they go to. That's why.

2.) Females are called hostesses. Males are called hosts. Males did not go to the game; females did. That's why you keep reading "hostesses". The Orange Pride Program is not exclusive to females--males are part of that group as well, albeit the minority. Just because only females are being spoken about has nothing to do with the program being exclusive to one sex.

This entire situation is not a big deal. Not even close. The NCAA's hatred for Kiffin is becoming more and more obvious.

GO VOLS!!!

 

[All Vol!]

1.) If they honestly did have a "crush" on the player(s), obviously they would want them to go to the same college they go to. That's why.
2.) Females are called hostesses. Males are called hosts. Males did not go to the game; females did. That's why you keep reading "hostesses". The Orange Pride Program is not exclusive to females--males are part of that group as well, albeit the minority. Just because only females are being spoken about has nothing to do with the program being exclusive to one sex.

This entire situation is not a big deal. Not even close. The NCAA's hatred for Kiffin is becoming more and more obvious.

GO VOLS!!!

I think you might really be reaching for something you want to be true here. Furthermore, "hostesses" was previously an official designation, and you're right, hostesses tend to be female. I'm sure they didn't refuse males in the past, but I think it is clear this has been a program whose purpose has attracted primarily pretty girls.

 

[Remy]

Folks, I specifically used the term libel rather than slander or defamation. There is an extremely low benchmark for libel, even to the point, it's one area where a defendant almost has to prove he did not libel rather than the originator of the suit having to prove anything. The NYTimes using the term hostesses in association with alleged wrong doing and an investigation that's not an official NCAA investigation libels each and every one of these young ladies. Again were I the father or families of these young women, I'd have my suit filed against the NYTimes and the NCAA for at least 9 figures by this afternoon. Put it before a jury of the young ladies peers in Knox County and perhaps the NYTimes can get their Mexican citizen who bailed them out financially to do so again after the award.

 

[All Vol!]

The parents of Miller and Willis of Burnes S.C. have made a statement. It says that the NYT article id overblown and inaccurate GoVolsXtra.com: University of Tennessee sports news from The Knoxville News Sentinel

MILLER and WILLIS FAMILIES SPEAK OUT!!!!!

GoVolsXtra.com: University of Tennessee sports news from The Knoxville News Sentinel

BOB, how many times are you planning to break this story?!

 

[tvolsfan]

Now the Orange Pride has their own helicopter? Amazing

Must have been a lot of money charged to Kiffin's credit card.

 

[SigEpVolFan]

Lane Kiffin and his boys have done it again.. After a 7-5 season he manages to piss of every coach in the SEC and become the most hated coach in the country. Now he has somehow found a way to overshadow the coaching search at ND and the National Championship game with Bama and Texas!! Get use to it Kiffin-haters.. Lane is doing his job by keeping UT in the news... Just like he promised..

 

[DahVols]

 

[DahVols]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

 

[Volsurance]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

In that event, I would encourage you to buy season tickets to Fulmer's next gig, Maryville Intermediate School OL coach.

 

[All Vol!]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

written us off in the bowl game too, huh?

 

[rallen]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

Thanks for your comments, Phil! Glad you finally saw the light!

 

[theutvolunteers]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

The record against urban and saban. record without cutcliff. Multitude of off season arrests etc.etc....

 

[VolDad]

I wondered where 5150 went to.

 

[All Vol!]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

Fulmer's record since 1998:
* Losses to unranked teams 6 years in a row
* 6 consecutive seasons with 3 or more losses (8 out of last 9)
* 4 year records immediately following national championship:
- Fulmer ranks 57th out of 77 national champions since 1936
- Fulmer ranks 18th out of last 19 national champions?
* Overall record 2005 - 2007: 18-13 (.581)
* Overall record 2002 - 2007: 46-24 (.657); worse than any 5 year stretch since 1980 - 1984
* SEC games 2005 - 2008 10-11
* SEC East games 2005 - 2008: 6-7
* 4-10 (.286) vs. Ranked Teams 2005 - present
* Lost 5 out of last 6 games vs. ranked teams (last 4 losses were non-competitive)
* 2006 Vol rushing defense gave up more yards per carry (4.70) than any Vol team since UTAD begin keeping the stats in 1951?

* Consecutive seasons without SEC title: 9
* Consecutive seasons without BCS bowl: 8
* Consecutive seasons without top 10 ranking: 6

* Seasons excluded from AP and/or Coaches Top 25: 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006 (and probably 2007)
* Seasons with 3 or more losses: 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
* Seasons with 4 or more losses: 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
* Seasons with 5 or more losses: 2002, 2005
* Seasons with multiple losses to unranked teams: 2003, 2005, 2007

* Consecutive seasons with a loss in last two games of season: 8
* Seasons with double digit postseason loss: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 (every year they played in the postseason)




I'm not a Fulmer basher, but it was a program in serious decline. It was time for a change.

 

[smowkee]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

Hey Phil! Haven't seen you since the Mule Day parade. How are things going?

 

[TideWarrior]

Does anyone know the other things the NCAA is investigating. I understand the hostess trip to SC, but what involvement are they concerned with regarding J James from GA and C Dunkley from FL. Or do these have anything to do with a hostess. Just curious.

 

[bluetickhound16]

Does anyone know the other things the NCAA is investigating. I understand the hostess trip to SC, but what involvement are they concerned with regarding J James from GA and C Dunkley from FL. Or do these have anything to do with a hostess. Just curious.

They are just looking for whatever they can find..... I used to laugh when the Bama fans moaned about "NCAA witch hunts".... Somehow, it doesn't seem so funny now....

 

[Spens]

Does anyone know the other things the NCAA is investigating. I understand the hostess trip to SC, but what involvement are they concerned with regarding J James from GA and C Dunkley from FL. Or do these have anything to do with a hostess. Just curious.

I believe it all centers around the hostesses. Of course, if they happen to find anything else while they are investigating...we could be in some trouble.

 

[TideWarrior]

All the SEC teams need to come together and tell the NCAA to go somewhere else and start their own league.

My concern is the NCAA is made up of a bunch of pencil pushing academic geeks that have the ability to declare what is best for college athletics, but yet have no one overseeing what they do and to validate what they do is in the best interest of the colleges. They have way to much power but yet go unchecked.

 

[SGMVols]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past. I was sick of 9.5 win seasons in mostly 11 game schedules, SEC title games, National Title in a program that does not win them, sold out stadium every year since it was expanded, gameday on campus, most kids drafted in the SEC for the past 20 years, no NCAA issues, dominating your rival (12-5 vs Alabama) etc. etc. I love waking to the exciting gun play, drugs, womanizing, cheating, national embarrasment, moral victories, being laughed at by coaches and media outside of Knoxville and a 7-6 season with a historically bad one coming next year. Oh and not a single sell out the entire year. Throw in a getting backhanded by the New Years Day bowls and we got ourselves a program baby..... I am on board.

1) UT won 5 national titles prior to Foolmore's tenure.

2) Foolmore was 29-21 in his last 50 games. That career record that you and the other Foolmorons praise so much was built mostly on beating Vandy, UK, and nonconference cupcakes like UAB. He had the luxury of taking over a team loaded with talent from Majors during a time when most of the SEC was down. Had the SEC been as strong then as it is now, he would have been fired within 5 years.

3) To say that UT had no issues with the 'AA during the Fulmer era is either ignorance or a blatant lie on your part. Does the name Linda Bensel-Myers ring a bell?

4) Another classic Foolmoron argument is his record vs. Bama. You forget that Bama was on major probation for a significant portion of the Fulmer era. He also lost 3 of his last 4 vs. the Bammers. Also, in the divisional era, the Florida game is UT's most important game, and Fulmer was 4-12 vs. the Gators.

5) Don't even get me started on Fulmer's players and their off-the-field actions. You must have been asleep when nearly a dozen players were arrested before the '05 season.

6) And finally, Kiffin took a team with less overall talent and depth than the team Fulmer had a losing record with, and won 2 more games with it than Fulmer did (possibly 3 more).

 

[AbeFroman]

I am so glad we have moved on from the boring predictable past.

Outstanding post, I fully agree.

 

[Vercingetorix]

After reading your post, I went and carefully re-read the NYT article. I'm no lawyer, but I see no basis at all for any slander/libel suit. Perhaps there are some lawyers who post here that could give you a better assessement of that.

Nothing in there rises to the level of libel, but the part about them being "folk heroes on internet message boards for their ability to bring in recruits" is intentionally and needlessly salacious. That's the part that would have me, if it were my daughter, trying to figure out a way to get my face on ESPN calling the writer an a-hole and threatening to kick his ass.