Tennessee shuts practice down for Covid-19 reasons

[FïreBall]

@Stoerner Fumbles

What do you mean by "cherry picking?" Since you mentioned "masks," are you aware that we have known for decades that they don't block viral transmission? No doctors anywhere were suggesting to use them during respiratory season, or they would have been laughed off by their colleagues. Here is a little collection of the "science" that you think doesn't exist:
Take Your Masks Off: That’s What THE Science Says

Amazingly, in real-world experience, we are three weeks into school and tons of kids are snotty, infected with strep, and running fevers. That certainly doesn't say much for the utility of their mandated cloth masks. You might also read over the data in California since their statewide mask mandate in mid June.

I have advocated hand washing as the most important thing we can do.. What is your opinion?

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

@Stoerner Fumbles

What do you mean by "cherry picking?" Since you mentioned "masks," are you aware that we have known for decades that they don't block viral transmission? No doctors anywhere were suggesting to use them during respiratory season, or they would have been laughed off by their colleagues. Here is a little collection of the "science" that you think doesn't exist:
Take Your Masks Off: That’s What THE Science Says

Amazingly, in real-world experience, we are three weeks into school and tons of kids are snotty, infected with strep, and running fevers. That certainly doesn't say much for the utility of their mandated cloth masks. You might also read over the data in California since their statewide mask mandate in mid June.

You can’t play the data expert, and then ask what the meaning of one of most common data science fallacies is. For your edification:

Cherry picking - Wikipedia

Cherry Picking is sharing the link you just shared on masks. It’s a subset of only the information that supports your point, and furthermore it’s data that ignores the specific nuances of the actual topic.

You’re over your head. Stop pretending.

 

[kiddiedoc]

It’s a subset of only the information that supports your point

Oh, so there IS information from several decades showing that masks are ineffective? Interesting. I thought the "science" was conclusive?

 

[overseasorange2]

Oh, so there IS information from several decades showing that masks are ineffective? Interesting. I thought the "science" was conclusive?

If masks are soooooo ineffective, then why do ALL surgeons wear them when they operate?

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Oh, so there IS information from several decades showing that masks are ineffective? Interesting. I thought the "science" was conclusive?

All caps isn’t going to rescue you from your cognitive dissonance, or your weak argument. The case dynamics we’re interested in involve the attributes of the spread of this virus in the public sphere. None of your links are related to those variables. Given the blends of the many unknowns and some knowns, we do in fact know that masks help slow the spread of this virus. As they understand more about aerosolization, spread dynamics, host attributes etc, they’ll begin to understand why masks work. For now we just know that they do in fact work in this application. Again, my problem isn’t your obvious bias. My problem is you presenting yourself as an expert while using highly-curated biased data to defend what is in essence a misinformed opinion.

 

[landscapingvol]

That is exactly what they did. The only restrictions they put in place were to shut down high schools, colleges and limit gatherings to no more than 50 people. Nothing else was shut down. Bars and restaurants remained open. Notice in this graph how everybody's "curve" is nearly identical. Germany and South Korea are the exceptions and judging by the totality of the data, that is probably more due to reporting method differences than anything else. People seem to forget that the whole concept of "flattening the curve" does not prevent deaths. It only stretches the number out over a longer period of time. The number under the curve doesn't change. The virus is still going to make its way through the population regardless. That is basic epidemiology. I wish this guy that was publishing these graphs could have continued but he reported that after July 1, the numbers became meaningless because a lot of countries started mixing numbers of other deaths with covid deaths. The date reference is in the graph. Note that Sweden is the only country listed that didn't shut down it's economy but their numbers are about the same as everyone else on a per-capita basis.

View attachment 302962

That chart isn’t remotely accurate and is 2 months old. Couple things, first Sweden has a total population of 12 million as a country and has a very low population density outside of a couple cities. Second, the chart doesn’t include Japan which blows your “theory” that doing nothing is a great plan. Here are the facts: South Korea has 5 times the population of Sweden and 321 total deaths; Japan has 10 times the population of Sweden with 1238 total deaths. The only reason the science deniers quote Sweden is because you don’t think the US should do anything but the US has zero in common with Sweden; New York City has a larger population than the entire country of Sweden. Japan and South Korea have proven what a country can do to fight viruses but most of you don’t want to be inconvenienced so you quote irrelevant “facts” about Sweden’s approach and pretend we are exactly the same

 

[landscapingvol]

If masks are soooooo ineffective, then why do ALL surgeons wear them when they operate?

He won’t answer it and believes that since he is a doctor that his opinions are infallible when many doctors lack any common sense. My uncle is a nuclear physicist who worked for Oak Ridge. He sat in his front yard with a 12 gauge shotgun waiting on a squirrel that had chewed through his roof vent. I asked him what he was going to do if he saw it running across the roof. He replied that he would shoot it. I replied who is going to fix the roof? He stared at me with a blank look on his face

 

[landscapingvol]

So when a plane crashes we stop flying? When someone dies of a heart attack we stop playing? When someone dies of old age we stop aging?

GTFO

For the 1200th time, plane crashes, cartoon anvils, drowning, and alien abductions aren’t contagious

 

[VFL-82-JP]

For the 1200th time, plane crashes, cartoon anvils, drowning, and alien abductions aren’t contagious

Heh, Landscaping, you miss the point.

No, those other causes of death are not contagious. But they are preventable.

And that's what the conversation is about: how far will we as a society go to avoid preventable deaths? How much bother and inconvenience are we willing to put up with to drop mortality rates?

So you see, it's really not apples and oranges at all. It never has been. The "but those aren't contagious diseases so your argument is invalid" response has always been a logical fallacy. All 1,200 times.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

My own non-medical opinion is that there are three kinds of people in this world: 1. Those who have already had C19, 2. Those who have it now, and 3. Those who will catch it. It's a virus. It's not going anywhere.....

Come on ... you forgot a at least one category ..... 4) Those who will never get it.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Heh, Landscaping, you miss the point.

No, those other causes of death are not contagious. But they are preventable.

And that's what the conversation is about: how far will we as a society go to avoid preventable deaths? How much bother and inconvenience are we willing to put up with to drop mortality rates?

So you see, it's really not apples and oranges at all. It never has been. The "but those aren't contagious diseases so your argument is invalid" response has always been a logical fallacy. All 1,200 times.

You just created a metaphorical scale with mortality on one side and “bother and inconvenience” on the other. Unless you’re a sociopath, I think you’ve answered your own question.

 

[utvolpj]

. Japan and South Korea have proven what a country can do to fight viruses but most of you don’t want to be inconvenienced so you quote irrelevant “facts” about Sweden’s approach and pretend we are exactly the same

Inconvenienced? Some of the things they did would be illegal in this country. Not to mention it would destroy the world economy. But hey, it might save grandma so let's do it

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Inconvenienced? Some of the things they did would be illegal in this country. Not to mention it would destroy the world economy. But hey, it might save grandma so let's do it

The countries that acted first and most aggressively rebounded first. We’re the ones rolling around in our own feces because we didn’t handle it thoroughly to begin with.

 

[utvolpj]

The countries that acted first and most aggressively rebounded first. We’re the ones rolling around in our own feces because we didn’t handle it thoroughly to begin with.

I see you ignored the legalities. Heck, China just shipped them off and they're having huge pool parties now. A shutdown of the us has a bigger effect than one in new Zealand. It actually hurts more than a targeted approach to protect the vulnerable

 

[kiddiedoc]

If masks are soooooo ineffective, then why do ALL surgeons wear them when they operate?

So they don't get body fluids in their mouths, and to limit the chance that their saliva and bacteria (which are enormously bigger than viruses) get in the surgical field. However, multiple studies have shown that they do not actually decrease wound infections, and I can reference those if you'd like. Once again: paper or cloth masks do not stop viruses. That's why N95 and respirators exist.

MeehanMD

 

[Vols1891]

Um no they are vastly over reported. Multiple times this year different health departments have had to adjust their numbers down.

Every reputable source agrees they are consistently underreported. Any downward adjustments are likely due to pressure from right-wing Trump loving administrations.

 

[TrumpedUpVol]

If masks are soooooo ineffective, then why do ALL surgeons wear them when they operate?

Masks may be mildly effective, namely in the confines of an operating room, but you're kidding yourself if you think that I (a healthy person without COVID-19) am actively helping control the spread of the virus (let alone avoid contracting it myself) by wearing a generic face mask.

Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery

I still wear masks anywhere they're mandatory, which is most places at this point, but that's out of general compliance as opposed to a belief that I'm contributing to the greater good.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You just created a metaphorical scale with mortality on one side and “bother and inconvenience” on the other. Unless you’re a sociopath, I think you’ve answered your own question.

Not at all.

And it's not a scale. Because there isn't just one variable. Instead, it is a two-dimensional plot, a graph or matrix. Something like this:



And the question is, where on that graph do we as a society feel most comfortable, given any dangerous condition?

Let's use automobile deaths as an example. Say the government and auto industry have, over many years and thousands of studies, figured out exactly how much it costs to save lives in a variety of ways:

• Slow interstate traffic from 75 to 55? You save X,XXX lives per year at a cost of Y,YYY in lost revenue, trade, etc.
• Mandate air bags for drivers? Save another X,XXX lives each year at a cost of Y,YYY per vehicle.
• Require Americans to walk rather than drive if the distance to be traveled is less than 5 miles? Save X,XXX lives at a cost of Y,YYY time and productivity.
• And so on.

You'll notice that one of those examples we accepted as a society (the air bags). Another we accepted for a while, then decided it wasn't worth it after all (the 55 speed limit). And the third, we have never accepted (mandated walking). They are all proven ways to save lives. But some are worth it to us, and others are not.

That same kind of calculus exists for heart disease, the flu, and now Covid-19.

We as a society are ALWAYS weighing costs versus benefits in this way. Yes, we compare the value of saving lives versus the inconvenience that comes with the measures required.

It is a simple argument, a child's argument, to say that we will pay any price as a society to save even a single life.

The real world doesn't work that way. It's all weighing costs and benefits.

We as a society just haven't caught on to that yet for Covid, though we have in so many other societal hazards.

 

[kiddiedoc]

we do in fact know that masks help slow the spread of this virus

No, we do not "know" that. California says "hi."

Another thing: why are we trying to slow the spread amongst the younger/healthier population? Are the hospitals overrun and we're out of ventilators? That was the original goal, before the posts got moved 74 times into the realm of ridiculousness. I've already explained how this will likely be deadlier if it continues into winter. Are you trying to kill grandmothers?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

When one side suddenly goes quiet like this, I always imagine that the other side's logic has finally caused a light bulb to go on over the first group's heads ... but they're often not willing to post a response admitting it. So they just shut down the web browser and go mow the lawn. Heh.

 

[37620VOL]

I have also met with 30 cardiologists ove that time due to the rare nature of my current condition. Also 29/30 of those doctors, 2 graduated from Harvard medical school, say we need to quasi-lock down, wear masks to protect the people surrounding us, and social distance to drive this thing down.

Am I the only that finds the number of cardiologists consulting with this patient difficult to believe? 30?

 

[kiddiedoc]

He won’t answer it and believes that since he is a doctor that his opinions are infallible when many doctors lack any common sense. My uncle is a nuclear physicist who worked for Oak Ridge. He sat in his front yard with a 12 gauge shotgun waiting on a squirrel that had chewed through his roof vent. I asked him what he was going to do if he saw it running across the roof. He replied that he would shoot it. I replied who is going to fix the roof? He stared at me with a blank look on his face

I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I've been active in the CV discussion since March (primarily in the political forum) and I always try to respond to questions.

Interestingly, your analogy works perfectly for the way we have handled this virus. Rather than locking down nursing homes and protecting the at-risk while the rest of us build immunity, we've blown a hole right in the roof (economy/education/mental health) and still not done anything to eliminate the virus (as that is an impossible task).

 

[Catbone]

News flash:

Covid isn't going away

 

[willinhf]

Covid19 is a corona virus, as are many viruses that cause the “common cold”. It can’t be stated with certainty (as is true with most things that have to do with this damn virus), but most research shows immunity lasting 3-6 months which would be similar to that of the common cold. There was an article today about the first confirmed case of reinfection in the US. I hate to be so negative, but herd immunity may never be possible for this thing. I hope I’m wrong.

Edit: I felt guilty about being so damn negative, so here’s an article for anyone that is interested that paints a more optimistic picture:

How strong is the immune response to COVID-19 infection?

Yes...fully aware...that is why I was saying that if they catch it now they should be fine for regular season (10 weeks = 2 1/2 months). Saw the reinfection case (1) in the US. Will be interesting to see what medical experts find in this one.n Was it a true re-infection? Failure to clear initial infection? Etc. I know the individual tested negative between the two infectious processes, but these tests are not acceptable accurate enough for me yet.

 

[BleedingButch]

Shutting down practice but a campus wide march is okay?